Bakka/Mecca

[runninglikezebras]

Whatever.

You're still invited to explain how that verse describes:

a) the old situation
b) the new situation
c) the instruction for change

I'm saying it's

d) disagreement about a current situation

Peace

[runninglikezebras]

"And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your qiblah, nor can you be a follower of their qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's qiblah, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust."

If a is not following b and c is not following d and vice versa

Is this a change in direction (qibla) or is it a disagreement about direction?

Logic dictates it's a disagreement about a direction.  The change you see in it is pure conjecture.  Logic 101.

Peace

[Man of Faith]

Why follow a qiblateh at all? That is against the second commandment. But that your friends who interpreted Quran in the first place has done away with. The same mentality that kept a Temple Mount holy and aligned all surrounding temples in its direction. It is actually fairly similar to how the pyramids were aligned according to the sun and a shaft to let the sun beams reach down to the deceased Pharaoh, whom was considered a god due to superstition.

That is keeping dead matter to act like a beacon.

The interesting thing is that the temple in "Mecca's" original building faced Sinai as well. It was probably just an ordinary church/synagogue originally. The arch at the site is part of the original building and it was in a similar direction as Sinai.

No place is holier than its inhabitants at any given moment. And it is hardly the flesh which is holy.

The 'Ten Commandments' as a reference is mentioned the first time in Quran in 2:60, impossible to recognize unless you drop the bias and decipher the passage anew. I only say a pair of stones with ten. One has to really know Arabic though.

Be well

[357]

Why follow a qiblateh at all? That is against the second commandment. But that your friends who interpreted Quran in the first place has done away with. The same mentality that kept a Temple Mount holy and aligned all surrounding temples in its direction. It is actually fairly similar to how the pyramids were aligned according to the sun and a shaft to let the sun beams reach down to the deceased Pharaoh, whom was considered a god due to superstition.

That is keeping dead matter to act like a beacon.

The interesting thing is that the temple in "Mecca's" original building faced Sinai as well. It was probably just an ordinary church/synagogue originally. The arch at the site is part of the original building and it was in a similar direction as Sinai.

No place is holier than its inhabitants at any given moment. And it is hardly the flesh which is holy.

The 'Ten Commandments' as a reference is mentioned the first time in Quran in 2:60, impossible to recognize unless you drop the bias and decipher the passage anew. I only say a pair of stones with ten. One has to really know Arabic though.

Be well

Good stuff, nice to know someone sees ten instead of twelve.

[Man of Faith]

Wish I could say like the Terminator: "I see everything". Well, at least this I have seen and a bunch of other things. Less of a sheep that way.

[runninglikezebras]

Wish I could say like the Terminator: "I see everything". Well, at least this I have seen and a bunch of other things. Less of a sheep that way.

Yeah you see as much as a Terminator with the power switched off.  How is recognizing/acknowledging the roots of your faith a form of idol worship?

Peace

[Man of Faith]

Bla bla bla... idolatry here idolatry there. I see holy places the kind of idolatry that counts.

[runninglikezebras]

 [updated to level of knowledge 2015-05-26]

I guess we'll have to wait for the next update of Man of Faiths knowledge chip for him to start making sense.

[truthseeker11]

Peace runninglikezebras,

I agree with you that the current so called "Masjid Al-Haram" in the city called "Makkah" cannot be the qiblah mentioned in al-quran.

The current pagan black cube idol known as "Kaaba" cannot be the common noun "kaaba"/base mentioned in al-quran or the "bayt" where hajj is to be held, due to the following contradictions:

3:97 In it are clear signs: the maqam of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from the people to hajj al-bayt, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.

1. Hajj al-bayt is for "the people", "whoever" can make a path to it, and not only for the Muslims as is the case with the current pagan black cube idol.

2. "maqam" of Abraham was IN the bayt and not OUTSIDE it.

3. "whoever enters it" implies that anyone can and should enter the bayt. No one is allowed to enter the current black cube idol except only the elite.

22:26 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the bayt: "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify my bayt for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."

The original bayt was free of paganism. The current black cube idol is full of paganism and pagan rituals:

1. It perfectly resembles the Djinn Blocks which were representative of the pre quranic Nabatean god Dhu-Shara (identified with Dionysus/sun-god), and Nabatean goddess Allat (identified with Athena/Minerva/Aphrodite) :

http://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/dhushara.htm

http://jerryandgod.com/2013/12/13/nabataean-gods-and-ezekiel-10-the-glory-of-the-lord/

2. The vulva shaped enclosure housing the black stone, and the black "dress" signifies that the black cube idol is the representation of the Nabatean goddess Allat rather than Dhu Shara.

3. The vulva shaped enclosure precisely aligns with the winter sunrise signifying worship of the sun god and his mother goddess Allat.

4. The black stone which is venerated is a pagan symbol, having nothing to do with islam.

5. Mindlessly spinning 7 times anti-clockwise around the female black cube goddess is a pagan ritual and is found nowhere in al-quran. This ritual is the same as the pagan ritual of circling the inner sanctuary of the pagan Nabatean temple seven times on the birth of the sun god Dhu Shara from the virgin mother goddess Allat, documented by Epiphanus in 4th century:

They were a North Arabic race who used the Aramaic script, and their principal male deity is Dusura, rendered into Greek as Doundares, and identified by the Greeks with Dionysus. The name means ?he of Shara? (dhu Sara), i.e., ?he of the mountain range esh-shara,? at Petra, and he is a Sun-god according to Strabo. Epiphanius, bishop of Salamis in Cyprus, writing in the fourth century, preserves the only illuminating information about the mythology of this great cult of the Nabataeans. As he was born and educated in Palestine, and served in a monastic order there, his statement must be taken authoritatively. He says that the Nabataeans praised the virgin whose Arabic name is Chaabou. In Nabataean the Arabic nominative ending in u is regularly preserved in proper names, and Epiphanius undoubtedly heard the word ka?bu, ?square stone,? symbol in Nabataean religion for both Dusares and the great Mother-goddess, Allat of the Nabataeans. An Arabic writer says that a four-sided stone was worshipped as Allat, who in a Nabataean inscription was called ?Mother of the gods? . . Epiphanius states that Dusares was the offspring of the virgin Chaabou and only son of the ?lord? (Ka?bu). The Panegyrarchs of Nabataean cities came to Petra to assist in the festival of his birth, which was celebrated on the twenty-fifth of December.

"Worship of a dying god, son of the Earth-mother, was the principal cult of this North Arabian people during the period immediately before and after the life of Jesus of Nazareth in Palestine. The title of the Mother-goddess, Allat, is ?Mother of the gods? here, and a translation of the title of the great Mother-goddess of Babylonia, belet ilani, ?queen of the gods,? whose title in Sumerian is also ?goddess Mother.? Dusares and Allat of the Nabataeans are an Arabian reflex of the great Babylonian myth of Tammuz and Ishtar; and if the god is identified with Dionysus, the original character common to both is that of a Sun-god and patron of fertility. Strabe describes the Nabataeans as a particularly abstemious people; the Greeks and Romans called Dusares the Arabian Dionysus or Bacchus; and a statue of him found in the Hauran portrays him as a deity of the vine. The cornucopia and patera are also characteristic of Dusares on coins of Nabataean cities as an Arabian. Bacchus Dusares is a Greek and Roman deity. The celebration of his birth in December at Petra and the northern cities of Bostra and Adraa in the Hauran with games and festivities is a replica of the spring festivities at Babylon, when the death, burial, and resurrection of Marduk were celebrated with weeping, which was exchanged for rejoicing. The meaning of the actia dusaria at Petra may be inferred from the similar festival at Alexandria in Egypt, there called after an unexplained Egyptian word Kikellia, or in Greek the Cronia, which also occurred by night on the twenty-fifth of December. In this festival an image of a babe was taken from the temple sanctuary and greeted with loud acclamation by the worshippers, saying, ?the Virgin has begotten.? On the night of the fifth of December, a festival occurred before the image of Core; it ended with bringing forth from beneath the earth the image of Aion, which was carried seven times around the inner sanctuary of Core?s temple. The image was then returned to its place below the surface of the earth. Epiphanius, in whose writing this Egyptian cult is described, identifies the virgin mother of this myth with the Greek underworld goddess Core, as he does the virgin mother of Dusares, Chaabou of the Nabataeans. There is a wide syncretism here in this Arabic religion, composed of Babylonian, Greek, and Egyptian elements; and beyond all doubt the Nabataeans possessed an elaborate cult of Tammuz and Ishtar, of Osiris and Isis, of Dionysus and Basilinna, the equivalent of Proserpine-Core, in which this deity was represented as a youth, son of the Mother-goddess, who was reborn yearly in midwinter and who died in the summer.

" ?The Mother-goddess of the Nabataeans, Allat, identified with Core by the Greeks, is essentially the North Semitic Astarte, and the Babylonian Ishtar.? "?Stephen H. Langdon, "Semitic Mythology," in Vol. 5 of The Mythology of All Races. Boston: Archaeological Institute of America, Marshall Jones Company, 1931, 15-19."

Emphasis mine.

http://www.bible-sabbath.com/Christmas/Chris2.htm


Furthermore, nowhere in al-quran is "kaaba" proclaimed to be the "qiblah".

"kaaba" being open to all mankind for hajj, and "masjid al-haram" being made off-limits to the pagans proves that they have to be geographically distinct and different.

Mention of both "makkah" and "bakkah" in al-quran is proof that they cannot be referring to the same place. There are no different "dialects" in al-quran which can explain the variance, but one language.

There is ZERO archeological/historical evidence of the existence of a city by the name of "Makkah" in 7th century CE. The earliest reference to Makkah as a city is in the Continuato Byzantia Arabica, an 8th century document.

There is ZERO archeological/historical evidence of the existence of what is currently known as "Masjid Al-Haram" at the time of revelation of al-quran.


Having said all this, I disagree with some of the archeological evidence cited by you. The 7th century mosques that have been discovered do not face the direction of Jerusalem as wrongly asserted by the sources you quoted. The Iraq mosques are off by about 30 degrees from Jerusalem also. The Egyptian mosque is also significantly off from Jerusalem. Rather than face Jerusalem or Makkah, they interestingly face the winter sunset and the winter sunrise respectively proving once again a pagan ritual of worshipping the sun!!

Please see the following:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html


Currently I am of the opinion that either "bakkah" and "makkah" are common nouns as mentioned in al-quran, or "Bakkah" is a proper name but its exact location is still unkown.

The exact location of "Bakkah" or "masjid al-haram" (the inviolable masjid) is irrelevant anyway because I am also of the opinion that:

1. Qiblah has nothing to do with a direction for salat as per al-quran. Facing a particular physical direction makes it paganism, as the Infinite Creator is everywhere:

2:115 And to God belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the face of God. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

2:177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, .............................

2. "From wherever you go out" (2:149, 2:150) implies that qiblah is a mental focal point/purpose/consideration rather than a physical direction, because it is impossible to face a physical direction from "wherever you go out" due to Earth's curvature and astronomical implications. How will you face a physical qiblah from a colony of humans living on the dark side of the moon in the future? Also more than a few miles away and you will be facing the sky or space instead of a physical place due to curvature of the Earth. They were facing a physical qiblah and the Creator corrected them by asking them to make their qiblah a mental one to avoid paganism. Everyone who still face a physical qiblah during salat are "turning on their heels" from the Creator's recommendation.

3. 3:96 talks about the first "bayt" implying there could be other "buyut" following the first. Any "bayt", mutually agreed upon by the muslims, that satisfies the condition of no paganism, and guarantees free access to all, qualifies as the "kaaba"/base for the purpose of hajj.

Peace and best regards.

[runninglikezebras]

The exact location of "Bakkah" or "masjid al-haram" (the inviolable masjid) is irrelevant anyway because I am also of the opinion that:

1. Qiblah has nothing to do with a direction for salat as per al-quran. Facing a particular physical direction makes it paganism, as the Infinite Creator is everywhere:

2:115 And to God belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is the face of God. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

2:177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, .............................

2. "From wherever you go out" (2:149, 2:150) implies that qiblah is a mental focal point/purpose/consideration rather than a physical direction, because it is impossible to face a physical direction from "wherever you go out" due to Earth's curvature and astronomical implications. How will you face a physical qiblah from a colony of humans living on the dark side of the moon in the future? Also more than a few miles away and you will be facing the sky or space instead of a physical place due to curvature of the Earth. They were facing a physical qiblah and the Creator corrected them by asking them to make their qiblah a mental one to avoid paganism. Everyone who still face a physical qiblah during salat are "turning on their heels" from the Creator's recommendation.

3. 3:96 talks about the first "bayt" implying there could be other "buyut" following the first. Any "bayt", mutually agreed upon by the muslims, that satisfies the condition of no paganism, and guarantees free access to all, qualifies as the "kaaba"/base for the purpose of hajj.

Peace and best regards.

Hi truthseeker11,

1. Agreed.  Don't you think it fits temple mount remarkably well?  Not only do all faiths have access to it.  The islamic waqf is still the balanced community in authority over temple mount.
2. It's debatable what you call "bayt".  The masjid al haram in Mecca is a replica of the architecture of the second Temple in Jerusalem.  The "bayt" of the second temple consisted of, like masjid al-haram today, also the courtyard.
3. Even in broader sense, you are not allowed to the entire domain of the masjid without having documents proving you are 'muslim' by the Saudi's standards.  They do check passports to verify this.  None such practices are applicable to enter Temple Mount.  Although there is no free access to all parts of the domain - to me this is irrelevant.  The salaat is traditionally performed on the courtyard not inside the inner structure.

I agree with you on qibla, the direction you pray in is not really a measurement for piety as Quran tells us.  To me it's striking though the exact same root word qbl is used in the old Testament always in reference to Jerusalem.  Next to this there is lots of evidence of early synagogues and mosques they all had a qibla pointing to Jerusalem. 

Peace