Author Topic: Bakka/Mecca  (Read 50976 times)

OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #240 on: July 27, 2015, 02:09:54 PM »
I see answering questions to you means raising questions to me in return.  My God, how old are you?

But we can conclude OnlyOneGodMultipleQiblas demonstrates the following 'reason':

He doesn't know who built the shrine at mecca.

He doesn't know how old it is or if it predates quran.

He doesn't have any sources for what he believes to be the qibla.

He is ignorant to factual data such as no christian influence in the hijaz reason.

He doesn't know where Quran tells him mecca is the qibla, simply because it isn't there.  He trusts the hadith to be true on this matter.

He believes God would tolerate the exclusive access to the most sacred by polytheists and thinks as a muslim he is not obliged to safeguard the most sacred.

He is not impressed by any archaeological evidence but prefers the fantastic stories we find in the hadith. 

Peace

Difference between you and me is that not only do I believe in the Quran, I also believe in the world wide academic historians opinion, that matches my belief.

You on the other hand, believe in things because you want to believe in things.

This campaign to disprove the existance of Prophet Muhammad and the whole history od Mecca etc is quite old and worn out. You don't want to believe that Muslims recorded a history of their origins. Thats your choice. I think we've been through this roundabout long enough:

"To you your religion and to me mine."

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #241 on: July 27, 2015, 02:11:37 PM »
Peace runninglikezebra.

Here is a  history quote , similar to your history quotes from your posts,but in disagreement with your point of view:

Kaaba & Mecca In History

Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book:

..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent worrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.[2]

Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia

And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.[3]

It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.

For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.[4]

Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference [3]). G E von Grunebaum says:

Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.[5]

The main question should be:

Where/what is "Masjid -Al-Haram"? 

Of course evidence from Qoran required.

Many thanks.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

You are showing me evidence of pre-quranic pagan worship in Arabia.  I don't dispute that.  It still is a place of pagan worship today.  Question is did Jews or Christians ever recognize Mecca like they would recognize their own sons?  The question is really simple. 

Can you think of any such place in the world that is recognized by muslims, jews and christians that is NOT Jerusalem?  Also a simple question.

Peace

OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #242 on: July 27, 2015, 02:21:15 PM »
Can you think of any such place in the world that is recognized by muslims, jews and christians that is NOT Jerusalem?  Also a simple question.

Peace

I am forced to say this but please remember what I quoted to you from the Quran:

"Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla; nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla. If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong."

What does it matter what the previous Qibla was.


runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #243 on: July 27, 2015, 02:29:44 PM »
@OnlyOneGod just out of curiosity what is your nationality?

Peace

OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #244 on: July 27, 2015, 02:33:26 PM »
@OnlyOneGod just out of curiosity what is your nationality?

Peace

Pakistani

Whats yours

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #245 on: July 27, 2015, 02:34:09 PM »
Belgian.

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #246 on: July 27, 2015, 02:40:59 PM »
The verse you quoted do you know what historical events it relates to?  To which actors?  Clearly the People of The Book who refuse to follow 'Thy qibla' are not all the People of the Book but a specific group, otherwise it would contradict with "The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."

I can identify each of those groups, can you?

Peace

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #247 on: July 27, 2015, 02:50:28 PM »
"Even if thou wert to bring to the people of the Book all the Signs (together), they would not follow Thy Qibla nor art thou going to follow their Qibla; nor indeed will they follow each other's Qibla."

For Jews the qibla was always Jerusalem.  Christians don't have a qibla.  The christians mentioned here are the byzantines who would never accept a qibla that is associated with the Jews or the Muslims.

Christians expelled the Jews from Jerusalem.  In turn certain Jews collaborated with Sassanids (persian polytheists) to reconquer Jerusalem.  They are historically known as the Tiberian jews and the followers of Nehemiah ben Hushiel.  They betrayed their convenant with God when they sided with polytheists to reconquer Jerusalem.  Nehemiah ben Hushiel was a mystic, he was installed into power as an exilarch and there are many indicitations these jews worshipped him like a messianic Ezra.

This verse is telling muslims not to expect these Tiberian Jews or Christians will ever accept your qibla and God is telling them not to follow their example which turned them into polytheists.

Who could God turn to to protect the most sacred?  Christians expel and refuse access to Jews.  Jews collaborate with polytheists.

Muslims get appointed as a balanced community to establish the correct Qibla once again.  The same qibla given to Abraham and to be the guardians of Temple Mount.  A promise which is still kept today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Islamic_Waqf

Peace


good logic

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #248 on: July 27, 2015, 02:58:32 PM »
Peace runninglikezebras:

This verse:الَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَعرِفونَهُ كَما يَعرِفونَ أَبناءَهُم وَإِنَّ فَريقًا مِنهُم لَيَكتُمونَ الحَقَّ وَهُم يَعلَمونَ ,that you keep quoting does not talk about a place or qibla?

The word "Yaarifounahu" is masculine ,It just means they know the "truth" about the new messenger bringing a new scripture! It is written in the Torah and the Gospel.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
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runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #249 on: July 27, 2015, 03:01:29 PM »
Peace runninglikezebras:

This verse:الَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَعرِفونَهُ كَما يَعرِفونَ أَبناءَهُم وَإِنَّ فَريقًا مِنهُم لَيَكتُمونَ الحَقَّ وَهُم يَعلَمونَ ,that you keep quoting does not talk about a place or qibla?

The word "Yaarifounahu" is masculine ,It just means they know the "truth" about the new messenger bringing a new scripture! It is written in the Torah and the Gospel.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

I suggest you read the entire sura if you think it does not speak about the qibla.  If you take the previous verses into account its clearly not speaking about recognizing the truth about a messenger but the truth about the correct qibla.

Peace