Bakka/Mecca

[runninglikezebras]

Well it is quite obvious that you are unfamiliar with these verses otherwise you would never claim that we as Muslims follow the qibla of the Christians and the Jews.

"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."

Contradict with what? That the qibla has been changed (as clearly mentioned in the above verses)? Kindly elaborate.

That verse contradicts with mecca as a possible candidate.  The qibla has never been changed by Gods or his messenger authority.  We know caliph Walid I changed the qibla.  As demonstrated by archealogy of early mosques.  The earliest archaelogical evidence of a qibla towards mecca is 8th century.  Well after the lifespan of Muhammad.

Peace

[runninglikezebras]

This is still a one way debate in which the meccans like to ask me questions while avoiding mine.  Here's my list again:

Please answer these questions:

Who built the shrine at mecca?

How old is the masjid al haram in mecca?

What source do you have proving who built the masjid al haram in mecca and when?

Do you claim there was christian influence in the hijaz region?

Where in Quran do you see Mecca named as the qibla?

Do you agree Quran says hindering access to masjid al haram is a great injustice?

If you do, how do you justify that with the practice of only allowing muslims at Mecca?

Thank you.

Please answer these questions.

[OnlyOneGod]

"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."

None of the christians or jews recognize mecca like they recognize their sons.  Literally zero.  Jerusalem is recognized though by muslims, christians and jews.

Like posted above.  There is no such place in the world that is recognized by all the abrahamic faiths.  It's not that hard to find out where masjid al haram is.  Still today temple mount is called sharif al haram.

Peace

Did you not yourself say that these abrahamic faiths recognize Bekka?

You couldn't find any historical record to place bekka in Jerusalem. But we know that the Qur'an refers to it.

Seems to me more of an issue about you not accepting Quran rather than anything else.

Quran is a reminder to mankind, and thus to expect the Jews and the Christians to know what their Prophets were talking about is not feasible. You yourself accept that the christians are wrong when they talk about the trinity. So then why would you accept that they know where bekka is located when the Quran is giving you clear answers to it?

[runninglikezebras]

Quran is giving clear answers:

"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."

This is literally what Quran says about the qibla.  Some of the jewish and christians conceal the truth.  Telling us the majority knows where this is. 

Again baca can only be identified in Jerusalem.  As only the baca in Jerusalem fits that description.  Mecca never fitted that description.  If you think it does please provide sources attesting at least some christians and jews recognized Mecca to be a site of pilgrimage.  They don't exist.

Then you tell me I have a problem accepting Quran?  That made me smile, seriously.

Peace

[OnlyOneGod]

This is still a one way debate in which the meccans like to ask me questions while avoiding mine.  Here's my list again:

Please answer these questions:

Who built the shrine at mecca?

How old is the masjid al haram in mecca?

What source do you have proving who built the masjid al haram in mecca and when?

Do you claim there was christian influence in the hijaz region?

Where in Quran do you see Mecca named as the qibla?

Do you agree Quran says hindering access to masjid al haram is a great injustice?

If you do, how do you justify that with the practice of only allowing muslims at Mecca?

Thank you.

Please answer these questions.

"Who built the shrine at mecca?"

Who built the shrine at the temple mount. Actually the better question would be. Was there ever anything Jewish related on the temple mount that you pray to? Atleast we know that the Kaaba is there in Mecca, and have never had any proof to show that there never was a Kaaba in Mecca (other than your fantasies).

"How old is the masjid al haram in mecca?"

The Masjid al Haram keeps being renovated. And it is renovated because we don't care about the rocks it is made of. It is simply a direction of Prayer.
How old is the temple Mount? and how come the Jews have yet to prove its link to any abrahamic prophet?

"What source do you have proving who built the masjid al haram in mecca and when?"

What source do you have for proving these things related to your Qibla in Jerusalem?

"Do you claim there was christian influence in the hijaz region?"

I have no reason to doubt it. What is your proof to doubt the whole academic world on this, including the vast majority of western non-muslim scholars. It is you who is on the weak wicket on this issue, not me.

"Where in Quran do you see Mecca named as the qibla?"

Where do you see Jerusalem being named as the Qibla. What we DO see is God telling us to follow Muhammad (PBUH) in the direction of Qibla. Unless you think that Mohammad (PBUH) never lived in the Hijaz, and was never a leader of a vast Arab empire at the time of his death. Do you think he was a figment of the Hadithers imagination?

"if you do, how do you justify that with the practice of only allowing muslims at Mecca?"

How does the saudi governments decision have anything to do with the message of God? Does Allah (SWT) say anywhere in the Quran that non-muslims are not allowed. If he does then thats Gods decision, not mine.

[runninglikezebras]

I see answering questions to you means raising questions to me in return.  My God, how old are you?

But we can conclude OnlyOneGodMultipleQiblas demonstrates the following 'reason':

He doesn't know who built the shrine at mecca.

He doesn't know how old it is or if it predates quran.

He doesn't have any sources for what he believes to be the qibla.

He is ignorant to factual data such as no christian influence in the hijaz reason.

He doesn't know where Quran tells him mecca is the qibla, simply because it isn't there.  He trusts the hadith to be true on this matter.

He believes God would tolerate the exclusive access to the most sacred by polytheists and thinks as a muslim he is not obliged to safeguard the most sacred.

He is not impressed by any archaeological evidence but prefers the fantastic stories we find in the hadith. 

Peace

[OnlyOneGod]

Quran is giving clear answers:

"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."

This is literally what Quran says about the qibla.  Some of the jewish and christians conceal the truth.  Telling us the majority knows where this is. 

Again baca can only be identified in Jerusalem.  As only the baca in Jerusalem fits that description.  Mecca never fitted that description.  If you think it does please provide sources attesting at least some christians and jews recognized Mecca to be a site of pilgrimage.  They don't exist.

Then you tell me I have a problem accepting Quran?  That made me smile, seriously.

Peace

Well the christians and the Jews living there DID know the truth. You simply want to ignore those people.

"Again baca can only be identified in Jerusalem."

As per whom? You have yet to give any solid evidence on this other than your love for quoting the bible. At one time you claim that the bible is false and then go on to use it as a historical grid reference for places no one has heard of. I would suggest that u choose a side and stick to it.

"As only the baca in Jerusalem fits that description."

Which description of Baca? By whom?

" If you think it does please provide sources attesting at least some christians and jews recognized Mecca to be a site of pilgrimage."

The christian writers of the bible were not Prophets of God, therefore, for them to not know the actual location of baca is understandable. Why would they mention a place like Mecca where they had never even visited it?

God in his last message sent a Messenger to that location, whether you want to believe or not is obviously up to you.

[runninglikezebras]

I'm sort of done with debating with you OnlyOneGod, you don't show much rationality.

If you still claim the hadith to be true when the archaeological evidence of the qibla of early mosques contradicts this, then you are simply insane in my book.  There is no mosque that can be dated to the 7th century pointing to Mecca.  Not one testimony of the qibla being mecca that can be dated to 7th century.  Your meccan qibla is only supported by hadith and contradicted not only by Quran, but by the entire historical record.

Peace

[good logic]

Peace runninglikezebra.

Here is a  history quote , similar to your history quotes from your posts,but in disagreement with your point of view:

Kaaba & Mecca In History

Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book:

..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent worrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.[2]

Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia

And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.[3]

It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.

For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.[4]

Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference [3]). G E von Grunebaum says:

Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.[5]

The main question should be:

Where/what is "Masjid -Al-Haram"? 

Of course evidence from Qoran required.

Many thanks.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[runninglikezebras]

The christian writers of the bible were not Prophets of God, therefore, for them to not know the actual location of baca is understandable. Why would they mention a place like Mecca where they had never even visited it?

God in his last message sent a Messenger to that location, whether you want to believe or not is obviously up to you.

This shows how little logic you have.  Quran says people of the Book recognize the place like their sons.  Here you are saying they never even visited Mecca while still pretending Quran says the qibla is in Mecca.   You sir are crazy in the coconut.  Delusional.

Peace