Author Topic: Bakka/Mecca  (Read 50927 times)

hawk99

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #190 on: July 26, 2015, 03:09:46 PM »
Peace runninglikezebras, while I agree in principle, I do have a problem with
shared rites and rituals as you propose.  We are a different community than
the Jews, Christians, Hindus and others and we each have our rites and rituals.
The sacred Masjid for Muslims is in Mecca not Jerusalem.  We do not celebrate
others holidays or pray or fast the way they do or make pilgrimage the same.
You are free to face Jerusalem if you like.

5/48  And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of
the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has
revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has
come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had
pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in
what He gave you,
therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to
Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;



from wherever you go out/exit turn your face toward al- Masjid al-Haram: IS THIS A COMMAND FOR SALAT DIRECTION?

Yep!


God bless


               8)
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

357

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 680
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #191 on: July 26, 2015, 03:11:03 PM »
peace all

We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do 2:144

So from wherever you go out/exit turn your face toward al- Masjid al-Haram, and indeed, it is the truth from your Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.2:149

And from wherever you go out/exit, turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] may be, turn your faces toward it in order that the people will not have any argument against you, except for those of them who commit wrong; so fear them not but fear Me. And [it is] so I may complete My favor upon you and that you may be guided 2:150

WHERE IS THE WORD SALAT IN THE ABOVE THREE VERSES?

First prove that these three verses are revealed in the context of SALAT.and then proceed further.

from wherever you go out/exit turn your face toward al- Masjid al-Haram: IS THIS A COMMAND FOR SALAT DIRECTION?

AMBIGUOUS COMMAND FROM ALLAH? SURPRISING?

Salaam Br. Hafeez

Why do you keep turning towards something that is Haram?Should one turn away from Haram?

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607501.msg367543#msg367543




runninglikezebras

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1501
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #192 on: July 26, 2015, 03:15:03 PM »
Peace runninglikezebras, while I agree in principle, I do have a problem with
shared rites and rituals as you propose.  We are a different community than
the Jews, Christians, Hindus and others and we each have our rites and rituals.
The sacred Masjid for Muslims is in Mecca not Jerusalem.  We do not celebrate
others holidays or pray or fast the way they do or make pilgrimage the same.
You are free to face Jerusalem if you like.

5/48  And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of
the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has
revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has
come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had
pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in
what He gave you,
therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to
Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;


Yep!


God bless



               8)

So I guess to you Ibrahim is not Abraham, Ishmail is not Ishmael, Ishaq is not Isaac, Yaqub is not Jacob. 

I will cite from Quran answering to you:

Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

To me it's equal if you persist in a sectarian take on Abrahams faith.  You'd be surprised to find out your tradition of hajj and zakaat is as old as judaism is.  It's rather ironic though to find a distorted interpretation of Quran on this forum that is openly promoting division and sectarianism.

To me Quran did not bring any new tradition nor faith.  It reminded us of an existing faith involving salat, zakat, hajj all of which are traditions predating Quran.  Everyone of the messengers named in Quran except Muhammad predate Quran.  If you fail to accept this you are bound to stray away from the abrahamic faith similar to what happened to the sunni and shia sects.

Different traditions you say:

Muslims: Once a year Muslims are commanded to make a pilgrimage (Hajj) to Mecca
Jews: Three times a year Jews were commanded to make a pilgrimage (Hag ? hag ha-matzot, hag ha-sukkot, hag ha-shavuot) to Jerusalem
Muslims: Only those capable of traveling to Mecca are obligated to go
Jews: Only those capable of traveling to the Temple were obligated to go
Muslims: Purify the body with water before going on Hajj
Jews: Purify the body with water before going on Hag
Muslims: Circle the Kaaba seven times (Tawaf) anti-clockwise
Jews: Circle the Temple seven times anti-clockwise
Muslims: During Hajj pilgrims are obligated to offer certain animals as a qurban (sacrifice)
Jews: As part of the Hag pilgrims were obligated to offer certain animals as a korban (sacrifice)
Muslims: If a woman is in her menses she should refrain from circling the Kaaba
Jews: If a woman is in her menses she should refrain from ascending to the Temple Mount and circling the Temple
Muslims: It is preferable to enter the al-Haram complex barefoot
Jews: It is preferable to enter the Temple complex barefoot

The only difference I see is that the majority of muslims doesnt know their qibla anymore.  Other than that the traditions are still intact and hard to distinct from eachother except for the geographical location.

But again, by all means, keep facing a meaningless STONE during prayers.

ps: "a law and a way" are singular not plural

Peace

hawk99

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #193 on: July 26, 2015, 04:08:08 PM »
So I guess to you Ibrahim is not Abraham, Ishmail is not Ishmael, Ishaq is not Isaac, Yaqub is not Jacob. 

I will cite from Quran answering to you:

Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

To me it's equal if you persist in a sectarian take on Abrahams faith.  You'd be surprised to find out your tradition of hajj and zakaat is as old as judaism is.

ps: "a law and a way" are singular not plural

Peace

Peace runninglikezebras, yes Ibrahim is Abraham, Ishmail is Ishmael,
Ishaq is Isaac, Yaqub is Jacob.  Like I said in my earlier post, fasting
Hajj, prayer and other rites and rituals exist around the world and
predate Islam, we do not "share" a qibla, or sacred masjid we have our way
and they each have theirs.

God bless you


                :peace: 

The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

runninglikezebras

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1501
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #194 on: July 26, 2015, 04:10:17 PM »
Peace runninglikezebras, yes Ibrahim is Abraham, Ishmail is Ishmael,
Ishaq is Isaac, Yaqub is Jacob.  Like I said in my earlier post, fasting
Hajj, prayer and other rites and rituals exist around the world and
predate Islam, we do not "share" a qibla, or sacred masjid we have our way
and they have theirs.

God bless you


                :peace:

That's a rather schizophrenic point of view don't you think?  You acknowledge Abraham, you acknowledge the jewish Hajj predates the Quranic reference to Hajj.   I could give you a much longer list with similar religious traditions existing with both muslims and jews. But still you feel the right qibla is some meteorite rock someone placed in a shrine in the desert?  Was Abraham jewish, christian or muslim?  When you answered that question try to answer the same question about the masjid al haram is it jewish, christian or muslim?

If there is only one Abraham there can only be one masjid al haram.  Unless you are suffering from some schizophrenic disorder, you can't avoid facing this issue.  Either it's mecca or it's jerusalem.  If you say it's mecca what evidence - quranically and historically - is there to support mecca?  Why did the early caliphs construct the dome of the rock in Jerusalem?  Why does neither the quran nor the dome of the rock have any message saying: jerusalem is the wrong  qibla - similar to how Quran and the dome of the rock tell christians Jesus is not a God?  Don't you think the dome of the rock confirms this symbolical place related to Abraham rather than contradicting it?  If you were caliph and you knew Jerusalem to be the wrong qibla would you build a octagonal shrine on it pointing in all directions as a qibla? 

Peace

runninglikezebras

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1501
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #195 on: July 26, 2015, 04:33:17 PM »
What I find surprising is hawk99's total denial Jerusalem even ever was a Qiblah.  Even sunni scholars admit at one point Jerusalem was the correct qibla.  Then God supposedly changed this qibla but forgot to tell about it in the Quran.  Sunni scholars abuse this argument to make their hadith mandatory.  Part of this is actually true.  We see a difference in the qibla of early mosques placed on a timeline.  The more you go back into the past: the more they will point to Jerusalem.   Later mosques consistently point to Mecca.

The only valid debate here I'm seeing is whether God really instructed a change in qibla in the sense of no longer the existing qibla at Jerusalem.  Instead I'm into a debate with people who seem to ignore historical facts that even the most hardcore sunni scholars admit to.

The same applies for the building date of the masjid al haram in mecca.  The only source: hadith that were written centuries after the actual events.  Who constructed the masjid al haram in Mecca?  Was it Muhammad?  Where is this confirmed in Quran?  Where is the instruction of God ordering to build a temple in Mecca?  It's nowhere to be found except in hadith fantasy stories dating 300 years after the events took place.

My estimation is the current masjid al haram is not older than 8th century.  If not 9th.  Never wondered why saudi's are so afraid to allow any archaelogical study on the matter?

There is no historical mist surrounding the construction date of the dome of the rock and by who it was built however.

I have asked this question before, not one has answered in defense of Mecca but where is your proof of christian influence in the Hijaz region?  There is no trace of them.  Not one sign there ever were christians during that era in Hijaz.  Yet all verses dealing with qibla and masjid al haram mention christians.

Peace

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6487
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #196 on: July 26, 2015, 04:51:36 PM »
Don't falsely accuse me of not answering your question or being incapable of doing so.  I gave you two examples: one involving the foreign names of messengers known to jews and another example of the import of the aramaic alaha to arab.

In case you have some visual handicap here it is again:

Quote
from the Aramaic/Syriac alaha, meaning 'God' or 'the God'.
The final 'a' in the name alaha was originally the definite article
'the' and is regularly dropped when Syriac words and names are
borrowed into Arabic. Middle-eastern Christianity used 'alah' and
'alaha' frequently, and it would have often been heard. 

But in the Aramaic/Syriac language there are two different 'a' vowels,
one rather like the 'a' in English 'hat' and the other more like the
vowel in 'ought'.  In the case of 'alah', the first vowel was like
'hat' and the second like 'ought'. Arabic does not have a vowel like
the one in 'ought', but it seems to have BORROWED this vowel along
with the word 'alah'.  If you know Arabic, then you know that the
second vowel in 'allah' is unique; it occurs only in that one word
in Arabic.

Another import from Aramaic another doubling of a consonant triggered by the ambiguity of the 'a' vowel.  Same phenomenon with "baca". alaha  (aram) -> allah (arab) | baca (aramaic) -> bacca (arab)

Besides I already supported this etymology with how these proper nouns are non fully inflected denoting their foreign origin.

Is Yaqub not Jacob?  Is Ibrahim not Abraham?

@huruf do you think you have removed the hadith from your faith?  If you still are so stubborn to ignore the massive influx of hebrew, aramaic, akkadian even persian words in the Quranic vocabularium you are trying to understand Quran using the language of hadith.  Not the language of Quran.

Peace

That you parrot nonsense does not make it into an explanation of anything. You assert something without any ground and from there you go on saying that you have proved something. So No Allah in Arabic till it was borrowed from Aramaic? Were you there?

And you are really impetinent and without manners. You have to have your way and be right no matter what. Do you think you penalise me by telling me that I hold onto hadith. Who are you? You do not know any more Arabic than I do nor do you have better consultors in Arabic than I do and you pose as if you were some authority? Don't you have a sense of ridicule?

No it seems you do not, but at any rate that is to be expected from somebody so full of himself as to take it for granted that he knows more than the next person and has a right to put other people down.

Enjoy your "aramaic" but don't waste it on me you are not thorough nor are you logic nort follow a proper argumentation.

Salaam

runninglikezebras

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1501
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2015, 04:58:03 PM »
That you parrot nonsense does not make it into an explanation of anything. You assert something without any ground and from there you go on saying that you have proved something. So No Allah in Arabic till it was borrowed from Aramaic? Were you there?

And you are really impetinent and without manners. You have to have your way and be right no matter what. Do you think you penalise me by telling me that I hold onto hadith. Who are you? You do not know any more Arabic than I do nor do you have better consultors in Arabic than I do and you pose as if you were some authority? Don't you have a sense of ridicule?

No it seems you do not, but at any rate that is to be expected from somebody so full of himself as to take it for granted that he knows more than the next person and has a right to put other people down.

Enjoy your "aramaic" but don't waste it on me you are not thorough nor are you logic nort follow a proper argumentation.

Salaam

If I'm right I'm not going to pretend I'm wrong.  Ad hominems are very poor arguments in any rational debate.   So far you haven't contributed anything substantial concercing historicity, linguistics or rationality.  You keep resorting to an emotional response which usually translates to just hating me.  Well let me tell you, I'm used to that.  If you want to knock me of my horse, better bring some substantial arguments.  Attacking my personality won't convince me of being wrong even if I would be.

You showed unawareness of any foreign words inside the Quran.  How do you expect me to treat you as an equal peer?

Peace

huruf

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6487
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #198 on: July 26, 2015, 05:07:31 PM »
Yoy call others names and then you come back saying that others are using ad hominem arguments. You must have some loose screws in your thinking habitacle.

At any rate you pretend you come up with useful stuff, but it is your own stuff not proven by anything and based solely on you own opinion that in the Qur'an the words you fancy are foreign loans.

If you think that because you are very daring when atacking others and do not have a sense of respect everybody is going down to tell you you are right, then you are wrong. You may turn to me and come with the ad hominem thing or whatever you fancy, you are still not right, and you hare not solid in your argumentation and you are overbearing and condescending and you do not know that much Arabic.

Salaam



hawk99

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2309
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2015, 05:33:29 PM »
What I find surprising is hawk99's total denial Jerusalem even ever was a Qiblah. 

Peace runninglikezebras the above is simply not true: please read below.

Correct!

6/10 When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in
his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and
gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously.  yeah, yeah, yeah I know its from the Bible


We know that the Qiblah was Jerusalem, the direction that all previous Prophets and messengers faced during
prayer, but then:



2/143 And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness
to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make
that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the
Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those
whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most
surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.

Muhammad fond of Mecca

2/144   Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a
qiblah which you shall like
; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever
you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely
know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.


Masjid Al Qiblatain (Mosque of the two Qiblas)


Masjid al-Qiblatain (المسجد القبلتین) (Mosque of the two Qiblas) is a mosque in Medina that is
historically important for Muslims as the place where the Islamic prophet Muhammad,
leading the prayer, is said to have been commanded to change the direction of prayer
(qibla) from Jerusalem to Mecca. Thus it uniquely contained two prayer niches (mihrabs).
Recently the mosque was renovated; the old prayer niche facing Jerusalem was removed,
and the one facing Mecca was left.


God bless you

   :peace:

God bless you from your schizophrenic forum member.



                           8)
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden