Author Topic: Bakka/Mecca  (Read 45100 times)

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #180 on: July 26, 2015, 08:51:27 AM »
Salaam Runninglike...

I am not interested in your conjetures about me at all, so if you can spare them so much the better because once I see where you are going I do not read further.

I requested you some things very specific, if you are not able to bring that, so that is it. Generalisations that you make over your own OPINIONS are not facts that I can use for gaining any further knowledge and I am not a child to engage in battles about who is right on this or who dares that or what this people have done or not done in this or that field. I am quite aged and independent to judge that for myself and if I think somebody's insight into something is worthwhile I will take the trouble to examine it as thouroughly as I can of my own accord, not because anybody "leads me to the straight path". But you do not bring up any such insight that I can see but rather the usual crap of your woulbe allknowers  about this and that which I have outgrown long ago. And bludgeonning me with the horrible threat of been considered a bad girl in whatever snese, leaves me cold.

In general, if you do want people to take your words into account, do not be so patronising. I do not need you to protect me from bad ones who have no knowledge and take me to the straight path and save me from ignorance. If I need a mentor I will choose it myself.

So if you have those things I mentionned to you good, if not, no use preaching to me the things that will make me acceptable to the political correctors because I am under no need to please anybody with my own view of things.

Salaam

Don't falsely accuse me of not answering your question or being incapable of doing so.  I gave you two examples: one involving the foreign names of messengers known to jews and another example of the import of the aramaic alaha to arab.

In case you have some visual handicap here it is again:

Quote
from the Aramaic/Syriac alaha, meaning 'God' or 'the God'.
The final 'a' in the name alaha was originally the definite article
'the' and is regularly dropped when Syriac words and names are
borrowed into Arabic. Middle-eastern Christianity used 'alah' and
'alaha' frequently, and it would have often been heard. 

But in the Aramaic/Syriac language there are two different 'a' vowels,
one rather like the 'a' in English 'hat' and the other more like the
vowel in 'ought'.  In the case of 'alah', the first vowel was like
'hat' and the second like 'ought'. Arabic does not have a vowel like
the one in 'ought', but it seems to have BORROWED this vowel along
with the word 'alah'.  If you know Arabic, then you know that the
second vowel in 'allah' is unique; it occurs only in that one word
in Arabic.

Another import from Aramaic another doubling of a consonant triggered by the ambiguity of the 'a' vowel.  Same phenomenon with "baca". alaha  (aram) -> allah (arab) | baca (aramaic) -> bacca (arab)

Besides I already supported this etymology with how these proper nouns are non fully inflected denoting their foreign origin.

Is Yaqub not Jacob?  Is Ibrahim not Abraham?

@huruf do you think you have removed the hadith from your faith?  If you still are so stubborn to ignore the massive influx of hebrew, aramaic, akkadian even persian words in the Quranic vocabularium you are trying to understand Quran using the language of hadith.  Not the language of Quran.

Peace

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #181 on: July 26, 2015, 09:09:04 AM »
Again I want to stress what I'm posting is not an effort to convince anyone.  If you don't know where your qibla is, that is not my responsibility.  I'm only witness to what qibla some of you have turned on their heels for (2:143).

Make no mistake though, everyone of us at some point will be asked about their qibla.  The question will not have to be answered to me.

In a sense the false qibla at Mecca confirms Quran to me: 2:143 We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who turns back on their heels.

The masjid-al-copycat-haram in Mecca is a giant magnet, drawing moths to it like the moon, for those turning on their heels and God makes most evident who is turning.

Peace

hawk99

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #182 on: July 26, 2015, 10:11:21 AM »
And thus we have made you a just community that you will be
witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And
We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might
make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on
his heels.
And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided.
And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed
Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

Peace runninglikezebras, so what was the qiblah we used to face
and what was the new qiblah?


God bless you



                       8)
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Man of Faith

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #183 on: July 26, 2015, 10:23:48 AM »
I still argue that a location is not more holy than the soul on-site at any given moment. The concept of physical "focal points" is totally not right.
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #184 on: July 26, 2015, 10:25:55 AM »
And thus we have made you a just community that you will be
witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And
We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might
make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on
his heels.
And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided.
And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed
Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.

Peace runninglikezebras, so what was the qiblah we used to face
and what was the new qiblah?


God bless you



                       8)

Hi hawk99,

The community addressed had different qiblas as quran clearly states, on which they didn't agree.  These different qiblas are the hallmark of polytheists.  Before following the messenger, many of those following had polytheistic practices.  The qibla appointed to them by the messenger is Temple Mount/Sharif Al Haram.  The response of those receiving this instruction is also described in Quran: former polytheists asking why they should accept a qibla that has been abandoned by the Jews while they were on it (the Jewish were expelled from Jerusalem).  Quran also warns not all of those given the entire book containing all the clear signs (Quran) will accept this qibla.

Peace

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #185 on: July 26, 2015, 10:32:14 AM »
And thus we have made you a just community that you will be
witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you.

The above verse shows how valid this still is today.  Temple mount is still under muslim authority while safeguarding free access to all adherents of the abrahamic faith.

Who is this balanced community in Mecca that safeguards access to muslims, christians and jews?

That is for one whose people are not at-hand/present (at) al masjid al haram
hindering from the way/path of God and to reject in it and (reject in) al masjid al haram, and expelling its people from it is a greater wrong AAinda/(in the presence of) God

And why should God not punish them while they hinder from al maSJD al haram, and they were not its guardians/protectors! Its guardians/protectors are the conscientious
those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.




If Mecca is your qibla the above picture is the traffic sign pointing to it, fully in contradiction with Quran.  Congrats!  Not to mention all the rituals performed there are 100% pagan 0% monotheistic.  The hypocrisy can't be more evident.  When sassanid conquerors and byzantine Christians tried to restrict access to the real masjid al haram in Jerusalem in a similar fashion, God intervened.  The result is Quran.

Peace

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #186 on: July 26, 2015, 10:37:59 AM »
I still argue that a location is not more holy than the soul on-site at any given moment. The concept of physical "focal points" is totally not right.

It's just a means to an end, making evident those turning back on their heels (to pagan/polytheistic ways) from those following the messenger and thus the message.

Peace

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #187 on: July 26, 2015, 10:55:38 AM »
For some Rabbinic and Talmudic evidence:

Quote
"...O Jerusalem, the built up Jerusalem is like a city that is united together...Pray for the peace of Jerusalem..." (Psalms 122:2-6);

Berakhot 30 ?One should direct one?s HEART towards Jerusalem.?

Brachot 27a If one is praying in the Land of Israel, he should direct his heart towards Jerusalem; If he is standing in Jerusalem, he should face towards the Holy Temple

Why are the fruits of Ginosar not found in Jerusalem? So that the pilgrims should not say "were it only incumbent on us to eat the fruits of Ginosar in Jerusalem, it would be enough" ? Pesachim 8b

Jerusalem is the light of the world ? Bereshit Rabbah 59

The Land of Israel sits at the centre of the world and Jerusalem sits at the centre of the Land of Israel ? Tanchuma Kedoshim 10

All who pray in Jerusalem - it is as if he prayed before the throne of glory, because the gate of heaven is situated there ? Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer 35

From the day Jerusalem was destroyed, God has no joy, until He rebuilds Jerusalem and returns Israel to it ? Yalkut Shimoni Lamentations 1009

 1 Kings 8:46-50 ""If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive unto the land of the enemy, far off or near; 47 yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they are carried captive, and turn again, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captive, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have dealt wickedly; 48 if they return unto thee with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies, which carried them captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name: 49 then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause; 50 and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee; and give them compassion before those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them."

The mizrah of old synagogues all point to Jerusalem:

Quote
Excavations of ancient synagogues show that their design generally conformed with the Talmudic and traditional rule on prayer direction. The synagogues excavated west of Eretz Israel in Miletus, Priene, and Aegina all show an eastern orientation. Josephus, in his work Against Apion, recorded that the same was the case for Egyptian synagogues. Synagogues north of Jerusalem and west of the Jordan River, as in Bet Alfa, Capernaum, Hammath, and Khorazin, all face southward, whereas houses of worship east of the Jordan all face west. In the south, the synagogue excavated at Masada faces northwest to Jerusalem. The Tosefta's regulation that the entrance to the synagogue should be on the eastern side, while the orientation of the building should be toward the west was followed only in the synagogue in Irbid.

Peace

hafeez kazi

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #188 on: July 26, 2015, 02:21:55 PM »
peace all

We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do 2:144

So from wherever you go out/exit turn your face toward al- Masjid al-Haram, and indeed, it is the truth from your Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.2:149

And from wherever you go out/exit, turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] may be, turn your faces toward it in order that the people will not have any argument against you, except for those of them who commit wrong; so fear them not but fear Me. And [it is] so I may complete My favor upon you and that you may be guided 2:150

WHERE IS THE WORD SALAT IN THE ABOVE THREE VERSES?

First prove that these three verses are revealed in the context of SALAT.and then proceed further.

from wherever you go out/exit turn your face toward al- Masjid al-Haram: IS THIS A COMMAND FOR SALAT DIRECTION?

AMBIGUOUS COMMAND FROM ALLAH? SURPRISING?

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #189 on: July 26, 2015, 02:35:40 PM »
You can find your answer in http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=144

Do you have examples of a qibla not used as a prayer direction?

Every early synagogue and early mosque is orientated towards Jerusalem.  How would you call this if not a qibla?

Where is the ambiguity?

Peace