Author Topic: Bakka/Mecca  (Read 53714 times)

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #160 on: July 25, 2015, 04:55:19 PM »
Now please answer the question you have been trying to avoid.  When mentioning the qibla, Quran mentions jews, christians and polytheists.  Are you claiming there were christians in the hijaz region?  If you do, I'm afraid you are not mentally sane.

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runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #161 on: July 25, 2015, 05:01:39 PM »
The Hijaz [Arabian peninsula] had not been touched by Christian preaching. Hence organisation of the Christian church was neither to be expected nor found.[3]

This is also mentioned in the books dealing with Christianity among Arabs in pre-Islamic times from the point of view of poets.

The testimony of poets to the influence of Christianity in a spiritual and a sociological sense is negative.[4]

Dr. Nab?h Aqel, a Professor of Arabic and Islamic History in the University of Damascus, states in his book Tar?kh al-Arab al-Qad?m:

The big difference between Christianity and Judaism is that Christianity unlike Judaism didn?t have any bases in Hijaz , Christianity was an external source of enlightenment echoed in Hijaz either by missionary activities form Ethiopia, Syria and Iraq or from Alheerah?s Christian centres; dair Hind al-Kubra [the order of Hind al-Kubra] ? Um Amro al-Mundhir [the order of Um Ammro] ? Dair Hind al-Sugra [the order of Hind al-Sugra] or from some of the scattered churches in Bahrain, al-Yamamah and Yemen.[5]

An observation from the point of view of Islamic traditions had been made by Richard Bell quite a long time ago. He says that

?in spite of traditions to the effect that the picture of Jesus was found on one of the pillars of Ka?aba, there is no good evidence of any seats of Christianity in the Hijaz or in the near neighbourhood of Makkah or even of Madina.[6]

Sir William Muir, despite being known as a harsh critic of Islam, admits that

The legend, that the image of Jesus and the Virgin was sculptured on a pillar of the Kaa`ba, and adored by the Arabs, is not an early or a well supported one, and in itself is improbable. Christianity never found much favour at Mecca?[7]

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #162 on: July 25, 2015, 05:00:44 PM »
Edit: Double post

OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #163 on: July 25, 2015, 05:02:31 PM »
To turn to your faith I would have to overcome the following obstacles:

1.  No historical record for mecca during Muhammads lifetime.  Literally none.
2. Masjid al haram is built by later caliphs.  No evidence of a masjid al haram at Mecca during Muhammads lifetime.  Literally none.

There is an abundance of historical record, you simply do not want to accept it.

3. I don't like to face a meaningless rock while praying.  I'd like to face the place my faith was given to me.  The first House of God.  Known to Abraham and every prophet in his lineage.

Is the temple mount also not a rock and hence as meaningless (or meaningful) as the Kaaba?

4. I would have to accept the Quran contains mistakes in spelling and thus meaning.  I would have to doubt every word in quran if one can just mistake an M for a B any mistake is possible.  I strongly believe Quran is protected.

You seem to want it to contain mistakes although it does not. It mentions the same name in the most used dialects of the time when the Quran was revealed.

5. I can't logically accept one God to install multiple qiblas.

Whats wrong with whatever Qibla your God tells you to pray towards. Why do you think that the baca of the bible cannot be the bakka or mecca of the Quran, located in the Hijaz? What do you actually have against this location which turns you off.

 
6. How can I acknowledge a qibla that was never acknowledged by any prophet except the hadith version of muhammad?

That is your own strawman. How about proving it?

[/quote]

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #164 on: July 25, 2015, 05:05:16 PM »
See above all historians agree there was no christian influence in the hijaz region.  Who were those christians in mecca during Muhammads lifetime?  Did you just invent those?

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runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #165 on: July 25, 2015, 05:07:04 PM »
So far we can see for you an M can mean a B in Quran and vice versa.  Not only this, you claim there was a christian influence in the Hijaz region in contradiction with pretty much every historian.

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runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #166 on: July 25, 2015, 05:09:32 PM »
How many jewish people do they receive at mecca on a yearly basis?  Zero.  Maybe you are worshipping a different God ;)

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OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #167 on: July 25, 2015, 05:10:07 PM »
Now please answer the question you have been trying to avoid.  When mentioning the qibla, Quran mentions jews, christians and polytheists.  Are you claiming there were christians in the hijaz region?  If you do, I'm afraid you are not mentally sane.

Peace

As this is the first time you're bringing this up, I don't see how i'm avoiding this.

And what is so illogical about christians being in the Hijaz (even though I didn't even bring up this issue)? Do you have proof to claim otherwise?

OK ... now answer my question which you have been avoiding

Why is there no actual historical record of a Baca ever existing in Jerusalem. And I don't consider the books of the bible to be historical proofs.

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #168 on: July 25, 2015, 05:11:53 PM »
As this is the first time you're bringing this up, I don't see how i'm avoiding this.

And what is so illogical about christians being in the Hijaz (even though I didn't even bring up this issue)? Do you have proof to claim otherwise?

OK ... now answer my question which you have been avoiding

Why is there no actual historical record of a Baca ever existing in Jerusalem. And I don't consider the books of the bible to be historical proofs.

The reader can establish I raised this question 3 times AND that you still avoid answering who those christians in Mecca were of which historians say there weren't any?  The historical record of Baca is the Old Testament itself. 

Quran http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=140
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runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #169 on: July 25, 2015, 05:15:13 PM »
Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

You bro are one saying Abraham and Ishmael were Jews or Christians.  You have your own qibla now, not one which was acknowledged by Abraham, nor Ishmael, nor Isaac nor Jacob or their descendants.  We know the qibla of the descendants: Jerusalem.


Peace