Author Topic: Bakka/Mecca  (Read 53878 times)

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #130 on: July 25, 2015, 03:38:33 PM »
Baka of jerusalum was established in the late 19th century. And its official name is Geulim. So yea, I do not compare this place to Mecca or becca of the Quran.

This is an outright lie.  Historical source?

The Baca valley is a geographical feature in the Jerusalem landscape that has never been known otherwise.

Peace

OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #131 on: July 25, 2015, 03:43:11 PM »
Well you have a problem with conjecture but here you are making a conjecture yourself: find proof of mecca ever being called baca.  Once you find it, it stops being conjecture.

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I'm not the one claiming that the mecca of today never existed as the qibla for Muslims. Overwhelming historical record show that Islam started from Mecca in the Hijaz. It is you claiming to have knowledge to oppose the majority view. Hence it is up to you to prove your point.

You claim baka in jerusalem, I say this place did not even exist at that time. Prove me wrong.

OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #132 on: July 25, 2015, 03:46:08 PM »
This is an outright lie.  Historical source?

The Baca valley is a geographical feature in the Jerusalem landscape that has never been known otherwise.

Peace

Can you give me any historical proof to back up your claim to this baca valley being in jerusalem?

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #133 on: July 25, 2015, 03:59:44 PM »
There is no historical record of Islam starting in the Hijaz region except for hadith fabrications of which the earliest date 300 years after muhammads death.

Old Testament evidence:

The word Baca is derived from the root which means to weep, but it nowhere means weeping, for which words of a different form are used. Here, as in 2 Samuel 5:23, it probably denotes some kind of balsam-tree, so called from the ?tears? of gum which it exudes. The vale of Baca or the balsam-trees was some vale which, like the vale of Elah or the terebinth (1 Samuel 17:2), and the vale of Shittim or acacias, took its name from the trees which grew there. Balsam-trees are said to love dry situations, growing plentifully for example in the arid valley of Mecca; and this is clearly the point of the reference. The vale of Baca was some waterless and barren valley through which pilgrims passed on their way to Jerusalem; but faith turns it into a place of springs, finding refreshment under the most untoward circumstances, while God refreshes them with showers of blessing from above, as the autumnal rains clothe the dry plains with grass and flowers.

This confirms the Jews knew of a Baca in Jerusalem.

Quran, as demonstrated also mentions Baca.  Confirming, not rejecting the Jewish concept. Where is your proof this Baca of the jews is the wrong baca but should be mecca?

For me this is sufficient proof.  Quran mentions the same place, and doesn't state the Jewish are placing this baca wrongly.  Logic demands it must refer to Jerusalem.

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huruf

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #134 on: July 25, 2015, 04:02:33 PM »
Bakka, double k, cannot be the same as any Baka, single K.

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runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #135 on: July 25, 2015, 04:11:38 PM »
For an imported word denoting a placename the double K is possible.  Baca imported from hebrew into arabic can undergo that kind of change. 

You think it is coincidence both verses in Old Testament and Quran using that placename attach the same symbolic value: Gods first House?



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OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #136 on: July 25, 2015, 04:14:24 PM »
There is no historical record of Islam starting in the Hijaz region except for hadith fabrications of which the earliest date 300 years back.

There is no record of Islam starting from Hijaz? Other than the fact that it was a vast nation which spread throughout the world within a few decades of the Prophets death and they brought their history with them. Are you really trying to say that this vast nation of people one day sat together and decided that we will lie to the world that we came from the Hijaz while we actually came from ______ (fill in the blank). Or are you saying that this nation of Muslims never even existed and that also is a figment of our imagination?

Old Testament evidence:

The word Baca is derived from the root which means to weep, but it nowhere means weeping, for which words of a different form are used. Here, as in 2 Samuel 5:23, it probably denotes some kind of balsam-tree, so called from the ?tears? of gum which it exudes. The vale of Baca or the balsam-trees was some vale which, like the vale of Elah or the terebinth (1 Samuel 17:2), and the vale of Shittim or acacias, took its name from the trees which grew there. Balsam-trees are said to love dry situations, growing plentifully for example in the arid valley of Mecca; and this is clearly the point of the reference. The vale of Baca was some waterless and barren valley through which pilgrims passed on their way to Jerusalem; but faith turns it into a place of springs, finding refreshment under the most untoward circumstances, while God refreshes them with showers of blessing from above, as the autumnal rains clothe the dry plains with grass and flowers.

This confirms the Jews knew of a Baca in Jerusalem.

Quran, as demonstrated also mentions Baca.  Confirming, not rejecting the Jewish concept. Where is your proof this Baca of the jews is the wrong baca but should be mecca?

For me this is sufficient proof.  Quran mentions the same place, and doesn't state the Jewish are placing this baca wrongly.  Logic demands it must refer to Jerusalem.

Peace

Since you didn't have any actual historian backing up your claim to baca ever being a place in Jerusalem, you decided to refer to the bible? Is that your proof? The Quran corrects the bible, and the Torah, it does not confirm it.

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #137 on: July 25, 2015, 04:14:48 PM »
?The Valley of Rephaim lay southwest of Jerusalem and formed part of the boundary between Judah and Benjamin (Joshua 15:8). It may correspond to the ?Valley of Baca? (Psalm 84:6), due to the balsam trees that were there (1 Chronicles 14:14-15). These are named, literally, ?weepers? because of their drops of milky sap.? (Payne)

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #138 on: July 25, 2015, 04:16:44 PM »
There is no record of Islam starting from Hijaz? Other than the fact that it was a vast nation which spread throughout the world within a few decades of the Prophets death and they brought their history with them. Are you really trying to say that this vast nation of people one day sat together and decided that we will lie to the world that we came from the Hijaz while we actually came from ______ (fill in the blank). Or are you saying that this nation of Muslims never even existed and that also is a figment of our imagination?

Since you didn't have any actual historian backing up your claim to baca ever being a place in Jerusalem, you decided to refer to the bible? Is that your proof?

I'm saying the early muslims had mixed ethnicity, arab, jewish, persian and god knows what else.  I don't deny the later caliphs were mostly arab-centered.  But well we know what Quran says about Arabs and their faith...

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runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #139 on: July 25, 2015, 04:18:42 PM »
You still have some questions to answer OnlyOneGodButMultipelQiblas...

Where does Quran say: this baca the Jewish believe is not the right baca it should be mecca.

Who are the christians Quran mentions being at the Qiblah?  Christians in mecca at that time?  Seriously?

Peace