Author Topic: Bakka/Mecca  (Read 45103 times)

hawk99

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2014, 10:12:02 AM »
I think the quran was telling us that the first house was Bakkah in israel land, and then it turned to makkah and masjidilharrom. The qiblah turning was to test who was following Muhammad who are not.

Correct!

6/10 When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in
his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and
gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously.  yeah, yeah, yeah I know its from the Bible


We know that the Qiblah was Jerusalem, the direction that all previous Prophets and messengers faced during
prayer, but then:



2/143 And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness
to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make
that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the
Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those
whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most
surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.

Muhammad fond of Mecca

2/144   Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a
qiblah which you shall like
; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever
you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely
know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.


Masjid Al Qiblatain (Mosque of the two Qiblas)


Masjid al-Qiblatain (المسجد القبلتین) (Mosque of the two Qiblas) is a mosque in Medina that is
historically important for Muslims as the place where the Islamic prophet Muhammad,
leading the prayer, is said to have been commanded to change the direction of prayer
(qibla) from Jerusalem to Mecca. Thus it uniquely contained two prayer niches (mihrabs).
Recently the mosque was renovated; the old prayer niche facing Jerusalem was removed,
and the one facing Mecca was left.


God bless you

   :peace:

The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Farabi

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2014, 05:39:47 AM »
Also, ancient israel land was bought by ibrahim on the more ancient time. It make me convinced that the first BYTELHM was on israel land. But, what is maqom ibrahim mean? On my native language, maqom mean grave, Indonesia language was took lots of arabic words, but, is on arabic maqom mean grave too? I dont think so. It still confuse me.

On the quran, we did not know which ibrahim son who built the BYT. If we know it, we can easly point that location, since HJR was exiled to a desert, while SRH was on a versatile land.
At first I thought I'll be neutral by replacing my emotional attachment, what then happened was, I switch my side from the other extreme to the other one. I had no idea what is neutrality.

csmith

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2015, 09:30:26 AM »
The Muslims fled to a Christian Kingdom, where they were granted asylum by the king from enemies that had pursued them there to kill them.

And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.

In Mohammed's time, there was a Christian Kingdom called Makkah, referred to today as the Kingdom of Makuria. Makuria, literally place of Makur, seems like the best candidate for the Makkah mentioned in Quran 48:24.



The Kingdom of Makuria received favourable treatment by the Muslims during the later expansion of the Islamic Empire, and good relations persisted for four centuries. The period between 750 and 1150 is known as the Makurian Golden Age.

Wikipedia Makuria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Makuria

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2015, 11:03:04 AM »
The Muslims fled to a Christian Kingdom, where they were granted asylum by the king from enemies that had pursued them there to kill them.

And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.

In Mohammed's time, there was a Christian Kingdom called Makkah, referred to today as the Kingdom of Makuria. Makuria, literally place of Makur, seems like the best candidate for the Makkah mentioned in Quran 48:24.



The Kingdom of Makuria received favourable treatment by the Muslims during the later expansion of the Islamic Empire, and good relations persisted for four centuries. The period between 750 and 1150 is known as the Makurian Golden Age.

Wikipedia Makuria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Makuria

Interesting theory.  But how do you explain the earliest battle involving muslim forces is dated 642, 10 years after the death of Muhammad?  The historical events you are referring to are post-Quran.

I think the western scholarly view is correct: 48:24 uses an aramaic imported word to denote a valley - from Syro-Aramaic root Km (ma, actually makk) (lower, to be low), adjective akm (m?kk?) (masc.), atkm (m?kk1?) (fem.), meaning "(the) lower (one)."  Coincidentally modern Israel/Palestine has some of the lowest points on earth, below sea-level even.

How can one claim to be a muslim, when one is showing nothing but confusion about the qiblah?  There is and only ever has been one Qiblah.  Jerusalem.

Peace

OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2015, 12:19:35 PM »
Salam/Peace,

Just to share my understanding for the benefit of others.

I used to believe that Bakka and the Restricted Sanctuary were one in the same.

My understanding after much study is that they are two distinct locations.

Bakkah = Jerusalem (the site of the first sanctuary established for the people and the location of Abraham's test)

Restricted Temple/Restricted Sanctuary = Mecca (the site of the second temple and the location of Lot as well as many events mentioned in the Quran)

Mecca was destroyed by a meteor shower, from which the black stone of the Kaaba is taken.

The sanctuary/temple of Mecca was a stopping point for Pilgrims and is an acceptable site for making the animal sacrifice for those who cannot continue the journey.

Bombay in India is now called Mumbai ... if a historical text talked about Bombay would you say that it does not mean Mumbai? You do not know whether the name has gone through a change over the generations. It could quite well have ... as have many names of many historical cities throughout the ages.

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2015, 12:45:34 PM »
Mecca destroyed by a meteor shower?  There was almost nothing there.  The place was entirely insignificant and not mentioned in ANY historical record of existing cultures of that time.

Mecca a pilgrimage site?  My God, where do you get such ideas?  Do you have any non-hadith source saying Mecca was a site of pilgrimage? 

Certainly if Lot and Abraham are to be located in the Arabian peninsula, we would find evidence of Jews and Christians acknowledging it as such. 

But by all means stick to a qibla that was never appointed by God.

People who accept Mecca to be their Qibla are equal to those with imaginary friends in my book.  Delusional.

Again I question those showing confusion about the qibla, how can you claim being muslim and at the same time show so much uncertainty about the most elementary of signs?  I notice a majority here does not know their Qibla.  Clueless about salat.  Doubtful about hell.  Questioning muhammad even existed.  Most of you adhere to an Islamic faith that is still dragging a sh*tload of hadith inspired nonsense with it.  The majority on this forum adheres to a sectarian branch within the abrahamic faith.  Seperate from Judaism, seperate from christianity, with your own seperate qibla and self-invented rules.

If you adhere to the faith of Abraham, there is no confusion about the qibla.  There is only one.

Peace

OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2015, 01:13:51 PM »
Mecca destroyed by a meteor shower?  There was almost nothing there.  The place was entirely insignificant and not mentioned in ANY historical record of existing cultures of that time.

Mecca a pilgrimage site?  My God, where do you get such ideas?  Do you have any non-hadith source saying Mecca was a site of pilgrimage? 

Certainly if Lot and Abraham are to be located in the Arabian peninsula, we would find evidence of Jews and Christians acknowledging it as such. 

But by all means stick to a qibla that was never appointed by God.

People who accept Mecca to be their Qibla are equal to those with imaginary friends in my book.  Delusional.

Again I question those showing confusion about the qibla, how can you claim being muslim and at the same time show so much uncertainty about the most elementary of signs?

Peace

We have Qurans that can be dated to the life of the Prophet (PBUH) and you question whether Mecca even existed?

Ok if Mecca never existed in Arabia but was located in Egypt then when was it established as the center of the Islamic faith in Arabia (at the current location)? Which year and by whom was this done? And how did that person / people convince the Islamic world to accept this new found Mecca as a place of worship for their faith? And how was all previous mention of it being in Egypt erased by the people?

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2015, 01:16:38 PM »
We have Qurans that can be dated to the life of the Prophet (PBUH) and you question whether Mecca even existed?

Ok if Mecca never existed then when was it created as the center of the Islamic faith? Which year and by whom? And how did that person / people convince the Islamic world to accept this new found Mecca as a place of worship?

I'm not saying mecca didn't exist.  I'm saying:

1. It was insignificant.
2. Not a pre-quranic place of worship.

My proof: there is not one non-hadith source even mentioning the place.   Persians and Yemenites who kept huge administrative records of the places they conquered don't even mention it.  In my understanding even Quran does not mention Mecca.

Peace

runninglikezebras

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2015, 01:24:19 PM »
We have Qurans that can be dated to the life of the Prophet (PBUH) and you question whether Mecca even existed?

Ok if Mecca never existed in Arabia but was located in Egypt then when was it established as the center of the Islamic faith in Arabia (at the current location)? Which year and by whom was this done? And how did that person / people convince the Islamic world to accept this new found Mecca as a place of worship for their faith? And how was all previous mention of it being in Egypt erased by the people?

Mecca gained importance after the Justinian plague.  This affected the medditerranean trade routes massively and favoured the trade routes using the persian Gulf and red Sea.  The history of Mecca however is obscured by tonnes of hadith garbage and zero archaelogical studies.  So one can't tell how Mecca gained importance for sure.  All we know is during the life of Muhammad it had so little significance villages consisting of very few inhabitants can be found in historical records of neighbouring powers but none of Mecca.  To me it doesn't really matter, it's an insignificant place and a good catalyst to draw sectarian arabs towards displaying their pagan traditions.

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm

OnlyOneGod

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2015, 01:28:19 PM »
I'm not saying mecca didn't exist.  I'm saying:

1. It was insignificant.
2. Not a pre-quranic place of worship.

My proof: there is not one non-hadith source even mentioning the place.   Persians and Yemenites who kept huge administrative records of the places they conquered don't even mention it.  In my understanding even Quran does not mention Mecca.

Peace

How many "non-hadith" mentions do you have of places like 'lahore' or 'peshawar' of that time? Does that mean that just because the outsiders never mentioned it and it was only mentioned by the locals then it never existed?