Author Topic: Bakka/Mecca  (Read 46884 times)

Samira1234

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2014, 03:31:32 AM »
Hello guys,

I have a question. What is your opinion on not letting people who set up partners to God into Mecca city or near Masjid al-Haram, because they are considered as najas (translated as impure)? Seeing this verse:

9:28 O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

I am not sure how others translated specific words, so any opinions would be welcome.

Peace,

Samira
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Wakas

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2014, 05:58:02 AM »
peace Arman,

Thanks for acknowledging a physical land can be secure sometimes.

No, because these words imply it to be a permanent characteristic. Such permanent characteristics...

Only "imply"? Can you clarify the evidence you have for it being permanent, considering the verb dakhala in 3:97 is in the perfect tense, e.g.
wa man dakhala hu kana
and whoever enters/entered (perfect) it is/was (kana)

It seems to me, Quran could have used the imperfect if it meant an ongoing/incomplete action, e.g.
2:108 and whoever exchanges (imperfect)...
2:121 and whoever disbelieves (imperfect) in it...
2:130 and whoever turns away (imperfect) from...

I'm no expert in Arabic grammar, hence asking if you have further evidence other than it seems to "imply" permanence. "Imply" doesn't sound like solid ground to me. You may find this discussion interesting (if you read it):
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604116.0


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Arman

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2014, 08:18:14 PM »
Salam Brother Wakas.

I am also not an Arabic grammar expert. My humble understanding is Arabic Perfect Verbs (like "Kana") imply continuity (both past and present and even future is implied). Here is a quick checklist on how famous translators have translated the phrase ?wa man dakhalahu kana ameenan?:

Quote

Sahih International: whoever enters it shall be safe
Pickthall: whosoever entereth it is safe.
Yusuf Ali: whoever enters it attains security;
Shakir: whoever enters it shall be secure
Muhammad Sarwar: Whoever seeks refuge therein will be protected by the laws of amnesty.
Mohsin Khan: whosoever enters it, he attains security
Arberry: whosoever enters it is in security.


Other than Muhammad Sarwar ? who appear to be interpreting, rather than translating ? the others seem to read this statement as a ?permanent characteristic? of the house in question.

I have seen from the article you linked that you too are convinced Bakkah or the ?house at Bakkah? is not a physical house. The only point that I am adding to what the article says is ?Bakkah? is also known as ?a spiritual oasis in one?s journey towards his destiny? to the people of Bible and I feel Qur?an is mentioning Bakkah to refer to that.

That being the case, I am confused why you are debating on points which we both seem to agree. I am convinced ?wa man dakhalahu kana ameenan? cannot be the property of a physical house ? if you think this is not a solid enough argument, then be it ? you are fully entitled to have your opinion. If your sole objective of debating is to get the pleasure of winning ? then I?ll give you a pass ? ?You win, I lose. My arguments are weaker than yours?. Hope this makes you happy.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

mmkhan

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2014, 10:26:04 PM »
مَجْمَعَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ is not a location name and the location is anonymous even if descriptive. Allah uses such because locations are not important for its spiritual message.

And, Masjed Haram does not refer to any building whatsoever...

Have faith

Peace,

That is what I was trying to say that only locations are mentioned in alQuraan not the names. And I believe even though the locations mentioned in alQuraan are seemed anonymous to us right now can be found.

Yes I agree that alMasjid alHaraam does not refer to physical structure.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

mmkhan

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2014, 10:29:23 PM »
I am also not an Arabic grammar expert. My humble understanding is Arabic Perfect Verbs (like "Kana") imply continuity (both past and present and even future is implied).

Salaam brother,

Can you please translate 18:50 for me? Specially the word Kaana in it. Thanks.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path :pr
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
 
3:51

Wakas

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2014, 04:16:54 AM »
peace Arman,

Thanks for the list of translations but I don't give them much weight, as I prefer to know the theoretical possibilities, then determine what is strongest. As far as I know, it could also be taken as past tense, and you did not provide evidence to the contrary.

 
?Bakkah? is also known as ?a spiritual oasis in one?s journey towards his destiny? to the people of Bible

Interesting. Do you have a reference?

Quote
I am confused why you are debating on points which we both seem to agree.

No need to be confused. We disagree on some points, and I highlighted them in my first response to you. You then brought up some other points (e.g. permanent/future tense) which were also discussed. Personally, if I post a view that may be inaccurate or not as solid as I think, I'd like to be told about it. We are all students of Quran here, learning as we go.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Arman

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2014, 07:24:34 PM »
Salamun alaikum.

Interesting. Do you have a reference?

Yes, I provided the reference in my first post in this thread:

http://biblehub.com/psalms/84-6.htm

No need to be confused. We disagree on some points, and I highlighted them in my first response to you. You then brought up some other points (e.g. permanent/future tense) which were also discussed. Personally, if I post a view that may be inaccurate or not as solid as I think, I'd like to be told about it. We are all students of Quran here, learning as we go.

My point was... "wa man dakhalahu kana ameenan" implies a permanent characteristic of the house.
You are arguing ... it "may not" imply a permanent characteristic, right?

Hypothetically, if I accept the proposition that "wa man dakhalahu kana ameenan" imples "and someone who entered the house was secured" ... does it really fit in the context of the verse? Any house in the world can provide temporary security to someone in some point of time in the past - what makes that point worthy of mentioning as an attribute of the "House at Bakkah"? I was confused with your arguments because you are bringing a grammatical argument that the phrase may mean something - whereas you yourself are convinced that the phrase does not really mean that.

But again, if the sole point of this debate is that I cannot "prove" kana implies permanent characteristic, and it is theoretically possible to read it as a verb in past tense - then I have already declared you winner in that argument.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Farabi

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2014, 05:10:11 AM »
BYT cannot be translated as assembly or congregation, it mean was house. I think this verse clearly used it.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=33&verse=13
At first I thought I'll be neutral by replacing my emotional attachment, what then happened was, I switch my side from the other extreme to the other one. I had no idea what is neutrality.

Farabi

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2014, 05:12:19 AM »
I think the quran was telling us that the first house was Bakkah in israel land, and then it turned to makkah and masjidilharrom. The qiblah turning was to test who was following Muhammad who are not.
At first I thought I'll be neutral by replacing my emotional attachment, what then happened was, I switch my side from the other extreme to the other one. I had no idea what is neutrality.

Wakas

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2014, 08:19:14 AM »
peace Arman,

You are arguing ... it "may not" imply a permanent characteristic, right?

Exactly.

Quote
Hypothetically, if I accept the proposition that "wa man dakhalahu kana ameenan" imples "and someone who entered the house was secured" ... does it really fit in the context of the verse? Any house in the world can provide temporary security to someone in some point of time in the past - what makes that point worthy of mentioning as an attribute of the "House at Bakkah"?

As you know I don't translate it as "house", but anyways, to me it may be worthy of mentioning because it tells us that God's guidance implemented at a locality provides security for all, and also perhaps make us reflect upon what brings about this security, e.g. open, fair, just, true, peaceful etc. A secure environment is no small thing.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org