Author Topic: Bakka/Mecca  (Read 44074 times)

Mazhar

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #410 on: May 10, 2019, 12:34:48 PM »
to be honest thats the hardest/difficult ever topic i ever encounter..

i start studying about it 7 years ago and i m still not sure about one decision or one finding what i can use.

i havnt find any absolute evidence in claims and also i did not find any evidence against those claims..

HISTORY is the only answer and i m in highly doubt if we have any (ORIGINAL) history availaible with us..

by (original) i mean let say bukhari claimed that omer said XYZ,
for authenticating it we need something from the OMAR(sign/stamp). and need to put it on radio carbon testing..

oiginal work is either lost or its a plan of big conspricy to make it lost.

funny thing is first official biography of key figure(muhammad) comes in market after 170 years from the date of his death. (why) ?

We forget that what renders a book to earn title of a great book. It is that it should take us to original setting.

Controversy about Becca and Mecca

 

It seems strange that some people thought that the House built by Iebra'heim [alai'his'slaam] and Iesma'eile [alai'his'slaam] is not the one which exists in Mecca but it was another one. They opine that it was a different House by referring to the use of Proper Noun Becca, in Qur?ān, which seems to them a site located somewhere in the blessed plains of the holy lands possibly near or at the location where subsequent temples were built and maintained by "Hebrew Prophets".

3:96-97

IGotQuestions

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #411 on: May 10, 2019, 12:48:12 PM »
The historical, geographical, and archaeological facts all seem to weigh against Mecca and heavily favor Jerusaelm/Bacca. To reiterate, if Mecca was identified as Umm al-Qurā, "Mother of All Cities/Settlements," how come it is not shown on any map until roughly the 7th century?

This link provides a exhaustive and comprehensive view on historicity of Mecca from classical writers:
STUDIES BY CLASSICAL WRITERS SHOW THAT MECCA COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT BEFORE THE 4TH CENTURY A.D.
By Dr. Rafat Amari

http://rrimedia.org/Worldviews/Islam/History-of-Islam/studies-by-classical-writers-show-that-mecca-could-not-have-been-built-before-the-4th-century-ad

Jafar

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #412 on: May 10, 2019, 01:50:19 PM »
funny thing is first official biography of key figure(muhammad) comes in market after 170 years from the date of his death. (why) ?

Because by that time the Abbasid Empire need to invent a religion to unite and control it's populace.

It seems strange that some people thought that the House built by Iebra'heim [alai'his'slaam] and Iesma'eile [alai'his'slaam] is not the one which exists in Mecca but it was another one.

It seems strange that people could believe Abraham built a structure in Mecca and mandated everyone within his clan to annually go there.
That is if it's the same Abraham as Abraham whose remain supposedly being buried in Hebron.

The (straight line) distance from Hebron to Mecca is 1250 KM.
The terrain is unforgivable, passing through the arid desert, thus one need to carry their own logistics from home, no chance of resupplying at rest area or nearest 7 eleven.

Given there were no airplane, fast train or car, the only viable means of transportation is by walking leveraging mule or camel to carry burden of baggage of logistics. At maximum speed it's 5 KM / hour.
By assuming 8 hours per day of walking, per day it's 40 KM of distance.
Thus it need around at least 31 days of dangerous travel to go one way and another 31 days of dangerous travel back home.
If the entire clan need to go there every year, they lost at least 2 months a year just for pilgrimage.
Not to mention the perils of raid and robber invading their home while they're away for 2 months..

This annual 'ritual' of pilgrimage will be suicidal for the entire clan..

Plus there aren't any record of such massive travel happened anyway...

Choosing another location nearby for annual meetup is much smarter and realistic decision...


IGotQuestions

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #413 on: May 10, 2019, 02:11:56 PM »
Because by that time the Abbasid Empire need to invent a religion to unite and control it's populace.

It seems strange that people could believe Abraham built a structure in Mecca and mandated everyone within his clan to annually go there.
That is if it's the same Abraham as Abraham whose remain supposedly being buried in Hebron.

The (straight line) distance from Hebron to Mecca is 1250 KM.
The terrain is unforgivable, passing through the arid desert, thus one need to carry their own logistics from home, no chance of resupplying at rest area or nearest 7 eleven.

Given there were no airplane, fast train or car, the only viable means of transportation is by walking leveraging mule or camel to carry burden of baggage of logistics. At maximum speed it's 5 KM / hour.
By assuming 8 hours per day of walking, per day it's 40 KM of distance.
Thus it need around at least 31 days of dangerous travel to go one way and another 31 days of dangerous travel back home.
If the entire clan need to go there every year, they lost at least 2 months a year just for pilgrimage.
Not to mention the perils of raid and robber invading their home while they're away for 2 months..

This annual 'ritual' of pilgrimage will be suicidal for the entire clan..

Plus there aren't any record of such massive travel happened anyway...

Choosing another location nearby for annual meetup is much smarter and realistic decision...

All valid points brother. In addition, if Abraham (as) created the first temple at Mecca, how come there is no mention of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.

imrankhawaja

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #414 on: May 10, 2019, 08:22:42 PM »
The Black stone has never been analysed with modern scientific techniques and its origins remain the subject of speculation.

MYSTERY upon mystery.

imrankhawaja

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #415 on: May 10, 2019, 08:30:52 PM »

Because by that time the Abbasid Empire need to invent a religion to unite and control it's populace.


what had been happening before ABBASID empire was more shocking started from(first fitna) and then so on.
history is filled with BLOOD and myths.

huruf

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #416 on: May 10, 2019, 11:41:13 PM »
All valid points brother. In addition, if Abraham (as) created the first temple at Mecca, how come there is no mention of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.

There is no mention "of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.". 

There is no mention of them either performing any such pilgrimage anywhere else.

Salaam

Iyyaka

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #417 on: May 10, 2019, 11:57:47 PM »
Salam,

For the definition of Bekka here is my answer :
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609584.msg424242#msg424242

Peace
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke - 11:26)

Jafar

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #418 on: May 11, 2019, 02:09:04 AM »
All valid points brother. In addition, if Abraham (as) created the first temple at Mecca, how come there is no mention of any succeeding Prophets performing pilgrimage to there? David (as), Moses (as), Jesus (as), etc.

Abraham Could Not Built The First Temple

Abraham lived around 1600-2000 BC. If he built a temple then definitely it is not the first or oldest temple that mankind around the globe has built. There's G?bekli Tepe in Anatolia which was built around 8000 BC (Stone Age) and nearby Hebron there's Baalbek complex in Beqa valley with first megalitic foundation built around 4000 BC. And given Abe was natively a Mesopotamian he has witnessed many other temple during his lifetime spread around Tigris and Eufrat river.

So Abraham built the first temple is definitely a myth..
If he indeed built a temple it will not be the oldest temple / first temple.

David, Jesus, Moses

There are records which indicate David and Jesus attended festivity / gathering events in Jerusalem.
While for Moses probably he attended festivity / gathering events in Egypt during his youth, while the legend of Exodus told stories he built a mobile makeshift temple during  the wandering. I clearly state that the stories of exodus is still a legend as there isn't any archaeological artifacts / evidence to support that such massive events ever took place. Thus cannot be proven yet cannot be disproven also.

Holy Places Around The World

But if one observe the human culture / tradition around the world, each tribe / clan / group usually have their own designated place for gathering / festival / meetup events. And all need to fit mandatory criteria of accessibility it should be nearby their dwelling place, maximum 2-3 days of travel.

Native american, for example each clan / tribe have their own designated place for meetup.. thus in USA alone there are more than 100 of such holy places. It doesn't make sense for Apache clan to gather at Hudson river 2000 Km away or at Yucatan 1600 Km away. Yucatan is holy place for the Mayan as they live nearby but nor for the Apachians...

The same thing consistently applied around the globe; The greeks gathered up at Mount Olympus, the Japanese at Mount Fuji, the Javans at Borobudur (This specific case is interesting, but more on that later), The mesopotamian at Tigris Eufrat river and so on and so on....

Summary

Thus there isn't any place defined as 'one and truest holy place' and all humankind *must* go there or else God will be angry.

Could Mekka be holy place of the nearby tribes? Yes it could be..
Could Ghamadan or Dhul Khalasa in Yemen be holy place of the of the nearby tribes? Yes it could be..
As such there are similar structure of Ghamadan and Dhul Khalasa in Yemen with Kaba in Mecca

But.. Why?

An intriguing questions is actually:
Why they need to make a claim that the cube structure in Mecca was built by Abraham?
And they even expand the claim to include that such place was actually designated by Adam???
What is their motivation? what is their objective?

TellMeTheTruth

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #419 on: May 12, 2019, 02:37:14 AM »
Salam!

Here is what I think:
The First House بیت for human beings was constructed by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, which is the Earth where all enjoyment متاع and provisions رزق are created for rhem. Its ceiling  السمآء is constructed without pillars and the Lord رب is established upon its Roof/Throne عرش. This is your Qibla and this is the Truth. Although He, the god, is near than our life vessels still He is established on العرش. Turn your faces towards His throne. Iblis is to attack humans from their front, back, left and right so they need to protect themselves by calling upon God who is the Best Protector. (there is no need of a physical walled house/city to avoid evil). Reflect upon his signs and make sure that He is the only one who can save you from evil. Be obedient to Him and don't do wrong to have His mercy. If you think that you have done something wrong then weep and seek forgiveness and weep/cry as much as you can in order to get His attention وجھہ and mercy رحمتہ. He will accept your repentence توبہ. He will guide you through His messages regarding the right and straight path of living this temporary worldly life حیوۃ الدنیا. Everyone who calls upon Him only، is your brother/sister and member of the House/Family اھل البیت. Ibrahim AS accepted these rules of the House and preached the same.
Note 1: If you are looking for a physical House/بیت then be sure that the first inhabited walled city was in Jericho in order to protect inhabitants and travellers to be safe from physical dangers like wild animals, lootees, enemies, etc. The second walled city buult by Jews was probably at Jerusalem. Letter ب means a boundary wall with an entrance/gate.
Note 2: If you are looking for a physical garden where Adam and Eve lived then look for it in Florida. A lot of links point towards Florida/North America.

Peace!