Bakka/Mecca

[truthseeker11]

Hi runninglikezebras,

1. Agreed.  Don't you think it fits temple mount remarkably well?  Not only do all faiths have access to it.  The islamic waqf is still the balanced community in authority over temple mount.

If I had to speculate about the location of the first bayt for hajj or the "kaaba" or "balad al-amin", then I agree it was most likely what is currently known as Jerusalem. Some circumstantial evidence supporting this and making Makkah unlikely to be the candidate is as follows:

95:1 By the fig and the olive
6:99 And He is the one who sent down water from the heaven, and we brought out with it plants of every kind. We brought out from it the green, from which we bring out multiple seeds; and what is from the palm trees, from its sheaths hanging low and near; and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, similar and not similar. Look at its fruit when it blossoms and its ripeness. In this are signs for a people who believe.

Figs, olives, grapes, pomegranates are plentiful in the area of Jerusalem but not grown in the area of Makkah.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601384.0

37:133 And Lot was one of the messengers.
37:134 When We saved him and all his family.
37:135 Except an old woman who remained.
37:136 Then, We destroyed the rest.
37:137 And you pass by them in the morning;
37:138 And in the night. Do you not comprehend?

Archeological evidence points to the location of the ruins of the city of Lot as being south of the Dead Sea which is about 90-100 km from the current city of Jerusalem.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/The-Discovery-of-the-Sin-Cities-of-Sodom-and-Gomorrah.aspx

The prophet passed by the ruins in the morning and in the night. Now unless he was Superman or Flash enabling him to fly or run from Makkah to the ruins of Lot in the morning and night, he must have been living within a few miles. This puts him in the vicinity of Jerusalem.

Thus it is more likely that "balad al-amin", "kaaba", "bayt al-haram" were either what is currently known as Jerusalem or close to it in Northern Arabia, since the prophet was located nearby.

My current opinion is that "bayt al-haram", "kaaba", and "balad al-amin" in al-quran refer to the same geographical place. Bayt al-haram and kaaba refer to the whole city. The city was a dwelling place (bayt) as well as the base (kaaba) of the believers.

I agree with you on qibla, the direction you pray in is not really a measurement for piety as Quran tells us.

 

Peace

[hafeez kazi]

peace truthseeker

Archeological evidence points to the location of the ruins of the city of Lot as being south of the Dead Sea which is about 90-100 km from the current city of Jerusalem.

The historicity of Sodom and Gomorrah is still in dispute by archaeologists, as little archaeological evidence has ever been found in the regions where they were supposedly situated. (WIKIPEDIA)

Endorsing the research of the Christian archaeologists which contradicts Quran?

Quran never said that the so called Sodom and Ghomorrah were under the Dead Sea, but on a established road

And We made the highest part [of the city] its lowest and rained upon them stones of hard clay. 15:74

The faulty translation is because of the fake discovery of sodom and ghomorrah in Jordan

How could have Allah rained on the people of Lout when HE first turned the city upside down? Did Allah rain on the city or people?

So We saved him and his family, except for his wife; We destined her to be of those who remained behind And We rained upon them a rain [of stones], and evil was the rain of those who were warned

فَجَعَلْنَا  And We made (for the people of Lout) عَالِيَهَا   its ARROGANCE into سَافِلَهَا  its HUMILIATION, and rained down ON THEM (the people of Lout) brimstones hard as baked clay 15:74

And We certainly saved the Children of Israel from the humiliating torment from Pharaoh. Indeed, he was عَالِيًا  ARROGANT one among the transgressors. 44:30/31

(This failing), they then sought a stratagem against him, but We made them الْأَسْفَلِينَ the ones most HUMILIATED! 37:98

And indeed, those cities are [situated] on an لَبِسَبِيلٍ مُّقِيمٍ  established road

So We took retribution from them (people of Lout and Shuaib), and indeed, both [cities] ARE on a لَبِإِمَامٍ مُّبِينٍ  clear highway 15:79

Both the cities of Shuaib and Lout (not far away from each other) are on a clear highway. Does the Quran say below the Dead Sea?

The city of Lout was not in Jordan but in YEMEN

And (SHUAIB SAID) O my people, let not [your] dissension from me cause you to be struck by that similar to what struck the people of NOAH or the people of HUD or the people of SALIH. And the people of LOUT are not from you far away. 11:89

The people of SHUAIB knew the people of NOAH, HUD, and SALIH because they were from the same geographical location and the place of LOUT was not far from the place of SHUAIB. Therefore all the above five communities were in the vicinity of each other. If the place of SHUAIB is found in JORDAN then the place of all the remaining four places should also be nearby Jordan.

And assuredly We have destroyed the towns round about you. and We have variously propounded our signs, that haply they might return 46:27

How many towns around MECCA/JERUSALEM were destroyed? Any evidence?

The people of MECCA/JERUSALEM are walking and living in the dwellings of those who were destroyed by Allah

Has it not become clear to them how many generations We destroyed before them, [as] they walk among their dwellings? Indeed in that are signs; then do they not hear? 32:26

Is it not a guidance for them (to know) how many a generation We destroyed before them, amid whose dwellings they walk? Lo! therein verily are signs for men of thought 20:128

And you live among the dwellings of those who wronged themselves, and it had become clear to you how We dealt with them. And We presented for you [many] examples." 14:45

The people of MECCA/JERUSALEM inherited the land after its previous people were destroyed

Has it not become clear to those who inherited the land after its [previous] people that if We willed, We could afflict them for their sins? But We seal over their hearts so they do not hear 7:100

The people of MECCA/JERUSALEM are warned of destruction of the likes of the people of Aad and Thamud. WHY?

But if they turn away, then say: I warn you of a thunderbolt like the thunderbolt (which fell of old upon the tribes) of A'ad and Thamud 41:13

The people of MECCA/JERUSALEM were the successors of the people destroyed

And We had already destroyed generations before you when they wronged, and their messengers had come to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe. Thus do We recompense the criminal people 10:13

Then We made you successors in the land after them so that We may observe how you will do 10:14

The trees in Mecca

[It is] He who made for you from the green tree, fire, and then from it you ignite. (Yaseen: 80)

Were there trees in the barren desert of Mecca?

This is enough to silence the proponents of MECCA/JERUSALEM as the place of the prophet Muhammad.

[truthseeker11]

Salaamun alaik Hafeez Kazi,

Does the Quran say below the Dead Sea?

The city of Lout was not in Jordan but in YEMEN

And (SHUAIB SAID) O my people, let not [your] dissension from me cause you to be struck by that similar to what struck the people of NOAH or the people of HUD or the people of SALIH. And the people of LOUT are not from you far away. 11:89

The people of SHUAIB knew the people of NOAH, HUD, and SALIH because they were from the same geographical location and the place of LOUT was not far from the place of SHUAIB. Therefore all the above five communities were in the vicinity of each other. If the place of SHUAIB is found in JORDAN then the place of all the remaining four places should also be nearby Jordan.

Thank you for your observations.

Route 65 seems to be an established road and a clear highway! Please check on Google Maps. If other ruined/destroyed cities/towns have not yet been discovered "not far away" from the south Dead Sea area, it does not preclude their discovery in the future.

Having said that, I am very open minded and completely open to any archeological evidence which conclusively proves the location of LOUT or the other mentioned messengers otherwise.

Some logical questions based on your input:

1. Does al-quran say SHUAIB and LOUT were located in Yemen?
2. What is your subjective definition of "not from you far away" as per 11:89? How many miles? 10 miles? 50 miles? 100 miles? 500 miles?
3. Do you know of any archeological evidence conclusively proving that NOAH, HUD, SALIH, SHUAIB and LOUT were located in Yemen and not south of Dead Sea area?

This is enough to silence the proponents of MECCA/JERUSALEM as the place of the prophet Muhammad.

I am glad that we are on the same page regarding Makkah.   


Best Regards.

[hawk99]

Peace Hawk.

You and I know that ,no  matter what you say, even if it is backed up by Qoran, others are going to claim you are " using hadith"?

Peace good logic, It is true what you say, however in a forum setting
exchanges are not just for the addresser and addressee but for "all"
members to examine the points of view and decide if there is any useful
information.

Peace hawk99,

My apologies for missing that post.  So you do admit there was a shared tradition once, confirmed by the mosque of the two qiblas.  You seemed to deny this earlier.

Thank you runninglikezebras, I do not deny the former qibla.

Please answer these questions:

Who built the shrine at mecca?

How old is the masjid al haram in mecca?

What source do you have proving who built the masjid al haram in mecca and when?

Do you claim there was christian influence in the hijaz region?

Where in Quran do you see Mecca named as the qibla?

These questions may be important to you, but for me they are
of little value, the qibla, and our house are clear to me as per
Quran.

Do you agree Quran says hindering access to masjid al haram is a great injustice?

Hindering non Muslims from Mecca is not an injustice.  I have no desire to visit
other faiths sacred landmarks or participate in their rites and rituals.

These questions are still to be answered by the stone worshippers.

There's a stone also I believe in your Jerusalem!

Bottom line:  There are no shared rites and rituals amongst faiths,
Hindus have their rites, Jews have theirs, Buddhist have their way,
we have ours!  You can face Jerusalem if you like or Ontario or Brazil.


God bless you from the schizophrenic, acrobatic, fleshy beast.   

[FreedomStands]

Just a quick note. Somewhere here something was mentioned. The Zoroastrians seem to be mentioned in the Qur'an by a different term than that of the polytheists, and the Zoroastrians at times were referred to in the Bible in positive terms (such as being called Messiah and righteous at times). Zoroastrian, though having various corruptions or exaggerations, was generally supposed to be mostly monotheistic with Ahura Mazda as the supreme God, but they would praise and glorify other powers too that were said to be subject to Ahura Mazda as servants and emanations of the Ultimate Power.

They were referred to in the New Testament as well, and in a positive way generally at times, rather than called "polytheists".

The polytheists in the Qur'an seem to have certain beliefs which the Zoroastrians don't seem to share in, and there seems to be archaeological evidence for non-Zoroastrian polytheism around the Arabian region and elsewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

http://www.academia.edu/829636/Pre-Islamic_Christianity_in_Arabia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Christians#Classic_antiquity

Haha the song playing right now is Thumbhang by Anvil

[good logic]

Peace Hawk.
Thank you for the reminder.

 "May my Lord guide me to do better next time."

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Layth]

Salam,

The site of Mecca was destroyed if you consider that the fiery stones that were unleashed on the people of Lot have a resonance in traditional history, where they believe that the people of the elephant were destroyed in Mecca by fiery projectiles.

[runninglikezebras]

What was there to destroy?

non Islamic Historians cannot find the City of Mecca before 400 AD and many experts seem to think it was not anywhere near the Arabian trade route.
The famous greek geographer Ptolemy mentioned Macoraba as a city in the Arabian interior. Some people wanted to assume that Macoraba was actually Mecca. Macoraba had appeared recently, with respect to Ptolemy?s time. This assumption would result in the conclusion that Mecca was built around the middle of the 2nd century A.D. However, even if this were true, it wouldn?t support the claim that Mecca was an old city existing from the time of Abraham.
Upon further study of the facts concerning Macoraba, we can conclude with certainty that Macoraba can?t be Mecca, and we can refute the idea that Mecca was built in the 2nd century A.D. All the facts point to the historical argument that Mecca was constructed in the 4th century A.D. Since Macoraba is not pronounced similar to Mecca, the scholar Crone suggested that the location of Maqarib, near Yathrib, was actually Macoraba. Maqarib is mentioned by Yaqut al-Hamawi, an Arab geographer who lived from 1179 to1229 A.D., in his geographical dictionary Mujam al-Buldan.[lx][60] This location is more acceptable than Mecca for the modern-day location of Macoraba, because Maqarib is closer in pronunciation to Macoraba than Mecca. Another reason is that Maqarib, though it does not exactly fit the documented location of Macoraba, is closer to the location, according to the latitude and longitude of Ptolemy, than Mecca is to the documented location of Macoraba.

[Layth]

While that may be true, it has no impact on the discussion at hand. Many towns which were destroyed have been lost for centuries, some never being populated again (Petra - capital of the Nabataen empire - was lost for centuries and left abandoned).

That Mecca was only populated in the 2nd or 4th century A.D. does not detract from what it could have been centuries before that.

[hawk99]

Peace Hawk.
Thank you for the reminder.

 "May my Lord guide me to do better next time."

GOD bless you.
Peace.

You are a contributor to the knowledge exchange in this forum,
one does not have to agree with you in order for others to benefit.
Keep up the good work.

That Mecca was only populated in the 2nd or 4th century A.D. does not detract from what it could have been centuries before that.

Agreed, places change names, rise and fall.

God bless