Author Topic: Bakka/Mecca  (Read 44197 times)

Layth

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Bakka/Mecca
« on: December 15, 2014, 03:10:36 AM »
Salam/Peace,

Just to share my understanding for the benefit of others.

I used to believe that Bakka and the Restricted Sanctuary were one in the same.

My understanding after much study is that they are two distinct locations.

Bakkah = Jerusalem (the site of the first sanctuary established for the people and the location of Abraham's test)

Restricted Temple/Restricted Sanctuary = Mecca (the site of the second temple and the location of Lot as well as many events mentioned in the Quran)

Mecca was destroyed by a meteor shower, from which the black stone of the Kaaba is taken.

The sanctuary/temple of Mecca was a stopping point for Pilgrims and is an acceptable site for making the animal sacrifice for those who cannot continue the journey.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Arman

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2014, 03:26:39 AM »
Salam Layth.

I agree with your assertion that Bakkah and Mekkah are not same. However, Bakkah = Jerusalem also seems equally far- fetched.

I believe "Bakkah" in Qur'an is the same as or rather a direct reference of Valley of Baka in Psalm 84:6. It is a metaphorical location on the way towards one's journey to his desired destination. The explanations in the below site seem quite appropriate:

http://biblehub.com/psalms/84-6.htm

The "house" at "Bakkah" refers to the safe-house created by Abraham and his descendents to take shelter under worship of one true Master of the universe. This is the safehouse for the faithful in their journey towards their ultimate destination - their Master.

Per my humble understanding the original physical location of bakkah can never be ascertained with certainty, and it does not matter.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Farabi

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2014, 04:16:57 AM »
Salam,
I've checked the original hebrew symbol and its true, it was written Bakka.
At first I thought I'll be neutral by replacing my emotional attachment, what then happened was, I switch my side from the other extreme to the other one. I had no idea what is neutrality.

Wakas

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2014, 06:00:57 AM »
peace all,

From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Quote
Where this specific area is may or may not be important for us now. For example, 27:91 and 5:97 say God made such an area inviolable thus one could argue who are we to change it, thus its location should be kept as is (this assumes this location is known and correct, e.g. current city of Makkah). However one could argue that the position of the shelter in 22:26 is one wherein no partner is associated with God, and since the messenger of Quran followed the example of the first shelter setup by Abraham (who is unlikely to have been in the region of Makkah) one could re-institute this model at one's locality, wherever that may be.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

hicham9

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Re: BKH ≠ MKH
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2014, 06:10:50 AM »
In my humble understanding, mkh (ܡܟܬ/مكه) is a U-shaped valley where the disbelievers obstructed the Prophet and his followers from reaching their destination (ie. المسجد الحرام) [...] 'nuff said (see: 48:24-27).

SLM
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.

reel

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Re: BKH ≠ MKH
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2014, 07:27:38 PM »
In my humble understanding, mkh (ܡܟܬ/مكه) is a U-shaped valley where the disbelievers obstructed the Prophet and his followers from reaching their destination (ie. المسجد الحرام) [...] 'nuff said (see: 48:24-27).

SLM

I checked the verse and yes, I see makkata in it. Also found Kabah mentioned in other verses.
5:95 الْكَعْبَةِ
O you who have believed, do not kill game while you are in the state of ihram. And whoever of you kills it intentionally - the penalty is an equivalent from sacrificial animals to what he killed, as judged by two just men among you as an offering [to Allah ] delivered to the Ka'bah, or an expiation: the feeding of needy people or the equivalent of that in fasting, that he may taste the consequence of his deed. Allah has pardoned what is past; but whoever returns [to violation], then Allah will take retribution from him. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution.

5:97 الْبَيْتَ الْكَعْبَةَ

Allah has made the Ka'bah, the Sacred House, standing for the people and [has sanctified] the sacred months and the sacrificial animals and the garlands [by which they are identified]. That is so you may know that Allah knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earth and that Allah is Knowing of all things.

But it is easy to be confused about Bekka and Makka. Here is the problem:

Indeed, the first House [of worship] established for mankind was that at Bakkah - blessed and a guidance for the worlds.In it are clear signs [such as] the standing place of Abraham. And whoever enters it shall be safe. And [due] to Allah from the people is a pilgrimage to the House - for whoever is able to find thereto a way. But whoever disbelieves - then indeed, Allah is free from need of the worlds.3:96-97

And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing.2:127

And [mention, O Muhammad], when We designated for Abraham the site of the House, [saying], "Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who stand [in prayer] and those who bow and prostrate. And proclaim to the people the Hajj [pilgrimage]; they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every distant pass -That they may witness benefits for themselves and mention the name of Allah on known days over what He has provided for them of [sacrificial] animals.
22:26-28

What I understand now is that during Prophet Ibrahim's time, the place was called Bakka. But during Prophet Muhammad's time, the name was changed to Makka. It is the title change similar to New Netherlands becoming New York, Decca becoming Dhaka, Armenia turning into Turkey, etc.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Farabi

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2014, 08:45:34 PM »
Well, reel,
what kind of transportation can be used at that age to travel from Iraq to mekkah in a short time only to establishing a house as a vacation? At least it need about 4 months on foot to come there on a single trip.
At first I thought I'll be neutral by replacing my emotional attachment, what then happened was, I switch my side from the other extreme to the other one. I had no idea what is neutrality.

reel

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2014, 09:00:29 PM »
Well, reel,
what kind of transportation can be used at that age to travel from Iraq to mekkah in a short time only to establishing a house as a vacation? At least it need about 4 months on foot to come there on a single trip.

Do you mean to say people never travelled back in the days? How did the Arab merchants travel to India without planes, cars and trains? They sure had the ships, but what about those that didn't have ocean/sea?

It doesnt take 4 months. If someone wishes to rest and then continue, it should take him a month to go to Mecca from Iraq,
Here is the direction on foot if the person doesnt take rest. It is based on today's roads.

Iraq
Head northwest
4.0 km
Sharp left
5.9 km
Turn left
19.6 km
Turn left
49.3 km
Turn right at ‫شارع الحر الرياحي‬‎
15.8 km
Continue onto Route 22
32.0 km
Turn right
2.6 km
Turn right onto Route 22
68.6 km
Slight right
18.9 km
Slight right onto Route 22
4.5 km
Slight right
10.8 km
Slight right onto Route 22
37.2 km
Continue onto Route 21
4.3 km
Turn right
Entering Saudi Arabia
117 km
Slight left
1.3 km
Continue onto Route 80
28.6 km
Slight left to stay on Route 80
33.0 km
Continue straight onto Al Quds St
120 m
Continue onto Route 80
800 m
Turn left onto Makkah St
120 m
Turn right
68 m
Turn left
350 m
Turn right
130 m
Turn left
300 m
Turn right toward King Abdullah Road
150 m
Turn left toward King Abdullah Road
14 m
Turn right toward King Abdullah Road
260 m
Turn left onto King Abdullah Road
300 m
Turn right
300 m
Turn right
3.4 km
Turn left toward Route 85
13 m
Turn right toward Route 85
450 m
Turn left onto Route 85
1.6 km
Slight left
1.2 km
Continue onto Route 85
120 km
Slight right to stay on Route 85
21.9 km
Turn right onto Route 9519
284 km
Turn right onto Route 70
77.1 km
Turn left
16.1 km
Turn left
20.3 km
Turn left
1.9 km
Turn right
5.2 km
Turn right
400 m
Turn left
35.1 km
Turn left onto Route 400
900 m
Turn right onto Route 427
112 km
At the roundabout, take the 1st exit
1.2 km
Turn right
1.1 km
Turn right
32.0 km
Turn left
32.7 km
Slight right
37.0 km
Turn right onto Route 340
1.8 km
Turn left onto Route 7077
35.8 km
Turn right onto Route 7300
67.8 km
Turn left
44.0 km
Turn right
2.0 km
Turn left onto Route 8432
1.2 km
Turn right
78.3 km
Turn left onto Route 8258
96.1 km
Turn right onto Route 8010
48.2 km
Turn left onto Route 8458
48.7 km
Turn left
750 m
Slight left
58.3 km
Turn right onto Route 4711
44.7 km
Continue onto Route 4710
63.3 km
Turn left to stay on Route 4710
30.2 km
Turn left onto Route 4700
15.6 km
Slight left
4.5 km
Slight left
1.8 km
Turn right
600 m
Continue onto Route 15
2.8 km
Slight right
900 m
Continue onto Al Hijrah Hwy
300 m
Turn left toward Al Madinah Al Munawarah Rd
28 m
Turn right onto Al Madinah Al Munawarah Rd
3.5 km
Turn left
5 m
Turn right
7.3 km
Slight left
1.5 km
Slight right
56 m
Turn left
1.6 km
Slight right
900 m
Continue onto Al Madinah Al Munawarah Rd/Route 15
Continue to follow Al Madinah Al Munawarah Rd
3.6 km
At the roundabout, take the 3rd exit
100 m
Turn right toward At Taysir
280 m
Slight left onto At Taysir
19 m
Turn left onto Bir Tuwa
150 m
Turn right toward Umm Al Qura
350 m
Turn left onto Umm Al Qura
57 m
Turn right toward Jurhum
75 m
Turn right toward Jurhum
79 m
Turn left onto Jurhum
900 m
Turn left
400 m
Turn left
400 m
Turn left
86 m
Mecca Saudi Arabia

388 hours=16.2 days
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Arman

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Re: Bakka/Mecca
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2014, 09:08:21 PM »
Salamun alaikum.

Quote

3:96 Indeed, the first house laid down for mankind is surely the one at Becca ? blessed  and guidance for the universe.

3:97 There are clear signs in it ? Abraham?s standpoint ? and whoever enters it happens to be secured. And to Allah upon mankind is the hajj* (literally debate / deep consideration) of the house - whoever is able - a path to it; and whoever represses (faith) ? then Allah is affluent of the universe.

(My personal translation; cross checking recommended.)

There are obvious signs in these verses that the "house" at becca is not a physical house - rather a "spiritual safehouse":

1. A physical house has limited scope in time and space - it cannot be guidance for the universe.
2. No physical house can guarantee safety for anyone who enters it. Note verse 4:78.
3. Note in verse 3:97 that two groups of people have been put in contrast - a) People who perform the hajj (which literally means debate or thorough consideration of a topic) of the house verses those who repress (faith).

I am personally not against the "hajj" ritual. And I do support that those who have faith in Qur'an should endeavor to perform hajj and umrah of Masjid al Haram at Mekkah. However, I am convinced that verses 3:96-97 are neither talking about Mekkah, nor the "Hajj" as a ritual.

And I seriously doubt Abraham had ever physically been to the place we know as Mekkah.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman



Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

hicham9

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Re: BKH ≠ MKH
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 04:28:11 AM »
In my humble understanding, mkh (ܡܟܬ/مكه) is a U-shaped valley ...

Another viable theory would be that mkh refers to מעכה (mʕkh), a small Aramean kingdom east of the Sea of Galilee.
Abel Beth MAACAH seems to have derived its name from its relation to this kingdom [...]

SLM
I was not delivered in this world into defeat, nor does failure course my veins.
I'm not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion, and I refuse to talk, walk or sleep with the sheep.