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Sam Harris's comments regarding Islam- Quran and Hadith

Started by Samira1234, December 04, 2014, 10:06:36 PM

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Samira1234

Hey guys!  :D

I saw this video on Sam Harris commenting regarding the mindset of Muslims, and on Quran and Hadith. He is a famous atheist by the way, who commented on quite a lot of religions. I found his points to be quite honest and straightforward. What do you guys have to say? I am very curious to know you guys' opinions. Thanks a lot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CeiO-v8D1E
Inner space is as infinite as outer space.

Where there is life there is hope.

Religion is A box; Spirituality is a golden spiral.

Man of Faith

Harmony with you Samira,

Shame I cannot watch the video due to my Internet connection.

But as an atheist he is probably right about a lot of points because people in general from religions have the wrong perception of what is "God". It becomes a god delusion if you do not know what your Foundation is.

Have faith
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Samira1234

Hello Emanuel,

In the video Sam Harris described how the poster country for Muslim moderation, which is Indonesia, has opinions according to a poll, where 40% said they agreed to stoning adulterers to death, and 16% on killing apostates, which is the lowest percentage on agreement on Islamic punishments. He said there is a terrifying subscription to very scary ideas by the Muslim population, even the very moderate ones. Places like Pakistan has upto 70-80% acceptance on killing of married adulterers, blasphemers, apostates, cartooners of Muhammad.

He also said that if on the Bill Maher show, he burned a copy of the Quran, there would be violent breakouts and riots in several Muslim countries, attack on embassies, people would certainly get killed, and he would have to spend the rest of his life hiding from theocratic. But then the behavior of ISIS are at max creating some hashtags and demonstrations, and not more response from the Muslims as should be in protection of human rights.

He also said the things ISIS are doing, taking sex slaves among women infidels, striking the heads off infidels, are actually things sanctioned by the Quran. Also most importantly, he said if a person believes the Quran is the literal word of the Creator, then it is absolutely rational to hate the infidels, to think the infidels would burn in hell for eternity, and that's a good thing because God wants it that way, and you should spread the one true faith to the ends of the Earth, and you are in a perpetual state of war against unbelievers. That is arguably one of the central messages of the Quran. One verse that could be held against that tide of animosity is the verse on no compulsion in religion, which should be used by reformist Muslims like Irshad Manji and Maajid Nawaz and other liberal Muslims to reform the faith.

Also he mentioned that nobody suffers under the excess of the Islamic dogmatism more than the Muslims themselves compared to the West, so out of compassion for them they should inspire renaissance and reformation in the Muslim world.

Yikes. I actually agreed to a lot of his points. That the Quran as well needs reformation and reinterpretation, even the Quranist version, which still has some violence and hatred against disbelievers or infidels, and misogyny, even without Hadith being used.
Inner space is as infinite as outer space.

Where there is life there is hope.

Religion is A box; Spirituality is a golden spiral.

Arman

Salamun Alaikum:

Most of the comments in the above post are quite valid. However, Qur'an does not need any reformation - the text is perfectly alright - rather the readers of the Qur'an need to reform themselves.

Mankind in general (not only those who are muslims) need to understand that our God-gifted conscience and intellect is our primary and inviolable obligation to our Creator. As long as one uphold his faith in this relationship with God - the interpretation of Qur'an will be obvious. But if one represses his faith in this relationship and puts the text above his morality and reason - then that would be equivalent to assigning the book (or rather a certain interpretation of the book) as a partner to God. That path is sure to lead towards deviation.

Quote

2:26   Indeed Allah is not embarrassed to set forth  an example of even a mosquito or something above it ? then as for those who have faith, so they know that is the truth from their Master, and as for those who repress (faith) so they say ?What does Allah intend by this example?? He deviates many with it and guides many with it, but He does not deviate with it anyone except the willfully disobedient.

(My personal translation, highlight added; cross checking recommended.)


May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman
Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).

Man of Faith

Indeed Samira,
Shame is people have translations/interpretations were kafar menas infidel/disbeliever but in truth it means fabricator. Usually those who call others kafar is that themselves in their ignorance to what the word means.
And no one cannot be aman b'Allah (have affinity) without having the same affinity as Allah and the prophets, angels and other assimilated people. This is what Quran speaks about, in truth. It is a peaceful book covered in dirt you can say, where peaceful passages are inferred to mean something other than they really mean. When I begun to dig in the dirt I was astonished myself how things could be like this, and when I kept digging a completely different faith emerged rather than the official Islam.
If there is a little anger it is probably justified, who is not angered by liars who fabricate ideas which never were relayed from "God" to mankind?
If we are upset by such it is natural that an unfathomable superpower is too, is it not? And the voices of the prophets echo too in all that.
These dogmatic sectarian are not aware that the religious "law" is a spiritual one,  not to be enforced through dogmatic means to someone who does not wish to be of affinity. Physical murder, theft and violence are other material crimes who are punished by what a community themselves deem just and "God" says equity in punishment and no more than what the other did to you, and even added that for the one who forgives it is better for him or her. What is equitable punishment is not measured by "God" in advice because humans have brains themselves. For example, if someone steals a fruit from a market and is nearly beaten to death. Is that an equitable punishment?
If a person who respects the "law" of "God" find themselves in a bad day with their neighbor and want to go to repent for the break in peace with their neighbor better first make peace with their neighbor and then go and show repentance for the break in peace. For a person of affinity is seeking repentance for a loss of temper and making an outburst in words, but before doing so they shalt go make peace with the neighbor. Then the repentance is worth more.
You see the "Mosaic Law" is not really a law as is, but it is spiritual guidance, a manual to help gain affinity with Allah. Half of the law can barely be upheld as a law, and how can you persecute someone for jealousy?
The prophets knew this, but fabricators in each community came and invented this and that and gave their own interpretation of what the prophet had come with.
If you break the parameter about adultery that is a major disadvantage for your assimilation with Allah, but it is questionable whether it is worth bringing this to a court. The psychological punishment and Allah's wrath is punishment enough. Besides when a crowd of people came with an adulteress to Jesus he begged that he one who is without sin throws the first stone. No one threw a stone, but they dispersed from the place leaving the prophet and the woman alone, and Jesus said he would not do anything but forgave and said do not redo the act. You see how hypocritical people are who want to murder someone for such thing when most people likely carry a sum of sins equal to the one of the woman?
God gave the 10 commandments without specifications of requital, the rest were relayed by Moses as a prophet, i.e. enlightened one, and decided upon as a wise community. And Moses was a human he too.
Jesus came and elaborated primarily on  the spiritual aspect of the commandments without giving much attention to anything else except exposing hypocrites. People missed that Jesus showed how spiritual the "law" is.
The law says "love thy neighbor as thyself" (it is the line about honor your parents, but misinterpreted), but Jesus said also "love" thy enemy. It is strong to be able to show peace to an enemy and this is what the love implies in his commentary, "for what difference does it make if you are only so towards those of affinity"?
Jesus said that Moses told do not murder, but Jesus said that the one who is even angry with his brother will be held accountable. And this is true due to that the "law" is on spiritual level I tell thee as Emanuel. Anyone who breaks his or her peace will be held accountable for this.
Without adding a single letter to the law you have lot of material for your spiritual ascension, and Jesus himself said that he had not come to change anything at all but only explain. People are confused over what kind of rules there are in the faith. These are what Moses said:
1. Serve God, your Sustainer only
2. Make no image of worship of anything in Heaven or Earth (i.e. God cannot be worshiped by traditional means)
3. No vain talk (do not conjecture)
4. Have a day of rest (refrain from working for personal gain every cycle to reflect on the good in life)
5. Honor your parents (should be interpreted as love thy neighbor as thyself)
6. Do not murder
7. Do not steal
8. Do not commit adultery
9. Do not bear false testimony, i.e do not lie
10. Do not be jealous
These are the MINIMUM requirements as Jesus conveyed and elaborated. The one who keeps his whole life as a sabbath it is clearly more meritorious. Yet they are not meant to persecute people but as spiritual guidance. Jesus even said being angry with your neighbor will be detrimental, since it is a general guideline this and the error is breaking your spiritual peace.
Have faith
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Man of Faith

No Quran does not need reformation but 'reinterpretation' by sensible and rational people who use an honest way of comprehension.

Have faith
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Samira1234

Hello Armanaziz,

Thank you for your response.

Quote from: Armanaziz on December 05, 2014, 03:50:47 AM
Salamun Alaikum:

Most of the comments in the above post are quite valid. However, Qur'an does not need any reformation - the text is perfectly alright - rather the readers of the Qur'an need to reform themselves.

Mankind in general (not only those who are muslims) need to understand that our God-gifted conscience and intellect is our primary and inviolable obligation to our Creator. As long as one uphold his faith in this relationship with God - the interpretation of Qur'an will be obvious. But if one represses his faith in this relationship and puts the text above his morality and reason - then that would be equivalent to assigning the book (or rather a certain interpretation of the book) as a partner to God. That path is sure to lead towards deviation.

I did not quite understand it. Right now I am in the process of cleaning my mind and conscience from all the indoctrination I have been fed with so far since my birth. And with that, I am already finding issues with the Quran that I find morally reprehensible. They can only be explained if one uses one-sided reasoning. One-sided reasoning is what got me questioning Sunni faith, and now Quranist faith, at least the interpretations we have of now. The fear mongering and hatred towards kafirs and infidels is right from Surah Baqarah itself, and in hundreds of verses. The misogyny, in particular in the form of polygyny, half testimony and half inheritance in majority cases, can only be supported if one uses one-sided reasoning and worse case scenarios for women and comparing with those horror scenarios instead of the civilized and decent scenarios, tells women to be grateful for the scraps of rights she gets in these regards. Also smaller cases like slaughtering mass numbers of animals during Eidul Adha I find barbaric as a religious practice (not sure if that is actually sanctioned Quranically or not).

Also regarding love of God in the scripture, a Christian who studied the text in it's current state wrote:

'...the Qur'anic commentary of God's love is striking in its paucity, and in its human-like description of God's love to mankind. Jesus said in Luke 6:32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them." '

Here is the link:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/love.htm

Anyway, let me just say I am not happy with a lot of the Quranic interpretations as of now. Also some Quranic punishments I find barbaric and unreasonable in it's pain and humiliation, such as 100 lashes for adultery for a person in public without showing compassion to them. And that is my God-given conscience and intellect speaking. I wouldn't also want a very devout Muslim, Quranist included, who believes wholeheartedly in the current accepted interpretations of the Quran to be the ruler of any country and hence impose such rulings in the society.

Peace,
Samira
Inner space is as infinite as outer space.

Where there is life there is hope.

Religion is A box; Spirituality is a golden spiral.

Samira1234

Hello Emanuel,

Quote from: Man of Faith on December 05, 2014, 04:08:26 AM
Shame is people have translations/interpretations were kafar menas infidel/disbeliever but in truth it means fabricator. Usually those who call others kafar is that themselves in their ignorance to what the word means.
And no one cannot be aman b'Allah (have affinity) without having the same affinity as Allah and the prophets, angels and other assimilated people. This is what Quran speaks about, in truth. It is a peaceful book covered in dirt you can say, where peaceful passages are inferred to mean something other than they really mean. When I begun to dig in the dirt I was astonished myself how things could be like this, and when I kept digging a completely different faith emerged rather than the official Islam.
If there is a little anger it is probably justified, who is not angered by liars who fabricate ideas which never were relayed from "God" to mankind?

I hope that is so as you say. I have no way of verifying it at the moment though.

Quote
If you break the parameter about adultery that is a major disadvantage for your assimilation with Allah, but it is questionable whether it is worth bringing this to a court. The psychological punishment and Allah's wrath is punishment enough. Besides when a crowd of people came with an adulteress to Jesus he begged that he one who is without sin throws the first stone. No one threw a stone, but they dispersed from the place leaving the prophet and the woman alone, and Jesus said he would not do anything but forgave and said do not redo the act. You see how hypocritical people are who want to murder someone for such thing when most people likely carry a sum of sins equal to the one of the woman?

This story is so good and of wisdom too I feel. Also the part where people punishing another when they themselves may carry a similar sum of sins of their own. I personally feel adultery is immoral and can take a person far away from God, not to mention the immense guilt it would bring and any possible consequences. But then giving barbaric and unreasonable punishments don't make sense either. I wouldn't be surprised if a person, especially if known for their religious conduct and character, after getting 100 lashes with a cane or a whip in public, end up committing suicide out of the pain and humiliation. I cannot imagine such a punishment being endorsed in public. Anyway, like I still I still need to verify myself. I am scared of speaking against something which is actually legislated in reality.

Quote
No Quran does not need reformation but 'reinterpretation' by sensible and rational people who use an honest way of comprehension.

I hope so too. Many of your interpretations personally make sense, even if I have no way of verifying them at the moment properly. And which is what giving me hope too. Many other Quranists seem to live in denial that there is anything wrong with the current interpretations in a mass way.

Peace,
Samira
Inner space is as infinite as outer space.

Where there is life there is hope.

Religion is A box; Spirituality is a golden spiral.

Man of Faith

Harmony with you Samira,

It will be hard to verify what I say since it is verification in itself, if one understands. I am not sure if I am unclear or Satan's grip over interpretation and deception is that tight.

Allah's way accompanies knowledge and wisdom and not darkness. If it sounds not right it is not right either.

To be able to convince the masses I am learning to be a master of Arabic, but what does that help when I get no response despite every attempt at showing both the right interpretation and the flaws of he traditional one, and also how I have landed on the right interpretation and not just saying: "this is right because I say so", or because my idols of the past interpreted it like this or it is the generally accepted by a majority of "Muslims".

Of course I understand it is hard to accept that there comes a complete stranger and seemingly beats everyone on their fingers (Swedish saying when you outmatch everyone). That is because I do not accept anything as true without verifying it myself nor accept any interpretation by any man or woman, not even on individual words for what they traditionally mean, and I know a secret from the 'Rabb', I can understand Arabic on morpheme level which improves every day and which exposes every fabricator and sectarian. Why? Because I did not let myself continue be deluded but I sought further beyond the deception and intelligence is rewarded by the 'Rabb'. However arrogance is not, and I do not say no one else could achieve the same nor I am better, but I merely want to bring people out of delusion without care of gratification or fame.

Unless you discover what I did of the secrets of the Arabic language yourselves you ought to listen to me, but I have no reason to force anyone. It is for your sake. I just tell you that there are no hated disbelievers in Quran and the message of Quran is for spiritual ascension. The admonition is towards those who lie and fabricate things "in the name of God", they are threatened with Gehenna, because their egos are more huge than a mountain, and only then one with a tiny ego passes through the gates and are saved from the fire outside. Their bodies, of those who managed, are left outside when they managed to separate the spirit from the flesh.

And lying is a sin against the spiritual law of Moses, while disbelief is not even mentioned there. Serving God you can do knowing it or not knowing it, and it is entirely about attitude.

It is better to be a disbeliever than a fabricator, for at least the disbeliever is more rational than to accept the fabricator's words.

Cast the fabricator in Gehenna instead and save the "disbeliever" who did reasonable good in their life. Do not you get it? It is about spiritual affinity all the way.

It is not a question about belief at all for even a hypocrite or fabricator can claim to believe and they do so.

Have faith
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Samira1234

Thank you Emanuel for your response. I will chat with you later more on this.
Inner space is as infinite as outer space.

Where there is life there is hope.

Religion is A box; Spirituality is a golden spiral.