Why can't we see God?

[Man of Faith]

Pantheism is not wrong a label. It refers to that the visual reality is actually the Creator which is true, since the universe is sustained by a kind of force which could feel like energy. The matter is a shaped illusion and does not really exist.

These -isms are never perfect however, so pantheism only explains a fraction of it.

"Panentheism" does not really make any difference.

The fact is that Allah is existence itself and the only permanence, so to say pantheistic does matter little from panenthestic. Humans, flesh or anything else for that matter does not really exist unless they exist in Allah, and is a reason why some people will eventually have a really bad day, when the universe is no longer sustained and kept "humming" as a physical illusion.

Besides the illusion we call universe is the Creator though, which panentheism reveals and is a raw kind of force/consciousness/existence, yet everything is one and the same.

Isms usually have dire limitations.

Salaam

[JavaLatte]

MoF, really... I don't know how to make you understand, my friend.

I hope someday you realize the risk of what you're doing in this forum.

[Man of Faith]

Is it a risk to enlighten people about the common misconceptions and of Paganism?

It would be a risk if I conjectured, but I am not. I am speaking the truth even if it is hard for Pagan-minded to accept that notion.

It is also so hard for people to realize that there is no direct mystery about the famous so-called initials of Quran. They are merely meant as a hint as to how the language is supposed to be interpreted.

Allah is not supposed to be treated as an image of anything. Please understand this. This is not news but both Jesus and Moses knew this.

Salaam

[FindingRightPath]

Finding,

God is the existence and the only permanently and indefinitely existing and only those who merge with the same consciousness will continue to exist in God. What you see is a mere illusion which does not really exist but is projected by the "force" of God.

The error people make is that they force God to be a separate image due to some Pagan ideology about gods while we actually are supposed to be merged in that consciousness and so to say co-exist in it. It is not idolatry because you acknowledge that it is ultimately the only real existence and you yourself only alone exist in the flesh/illusion. You are basically nothing alone. You seek to exist in God directly by sharing affinity and thus merging.

Salaam

That's how I understand too, and I agree with this, but I don't get the rest. The one about prostrating in Salat, etc? I don't get how is this prostrating to something else when God is everywhere.

[FindingRightPath]

Peace FindingRightPath,

Man of Faith is wrong when he gives a pantheistic vision of the infinite Creator.

I agree that pantheism is incorrect. Instead I believe in panentheism which is supported by al-quran. Please see the following for difference between the two:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607118.msg361668#msg361668

I think you meant to say "universe is part of God" instead of the other way around in red. I agree that all matter is a tiny part of the infinite Creator and the infinite Creator is also beyond that.

Whenever you see any form of matter you see a physical manifestation of a tiny part of the infinite Creator, so you see a part of the infinite Creator but you cannot see the infinite Creator in its entirety.

Having said that, I am going to say something very controversial that I don't think 7:143 refers to seeing the infinite Creator! That is why hawk put "Allah" in brackets.

7:143 So when Moses came to our appointed time, and his Lord spoke to him, he said: "My Lord, let me look upon you." He said: "You will not see Me, but look upon the mountain, if it stays in its place then you will see Me." So when his Lord revealed Himself to the mountain, He caused it to crumble; thus Moses fell unconscious. When he awoke, he said: "Glory to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."

Hmm .... Moses came to OUR (first person) appointed time and then HIS LORD (third person) spoke to him? Who is the first person "OUR"?

Something is amiss in the Arabic!

May the infinite Creator bless you.

Peace,

Sorry, yes, I meant universe is part of God, not the other way around. Once I told this to someone as I had learned it from Quran, and they told me I am talking about Panentheism concept? I didn't know panentheism term or what it meant at that time, but I think many Muslims from sects, even those who know it is in Quran, don't like it for some reason.

[Man of Faith]

Truth,

The point is that prostration requires an image and thus it forces Allah to attain that of an image while this is not meant to be so. While it does not matter much, since the commandments are rather spiritual guidance and help on mindset, it is completely redundant and may lead a person away from the right focus. And they expect the same image to do all the hard work for them as long as they keep it pleased through rituals, just like in Paganism, so it can become detrimental to a person's progress. Allah has no need of primitive rituals nor do you benefit from them yourself except from your own faith in them, if your thinking is not deluded by it.

Prostration is a Pagan remnant utilizing Middle-Eastern customs.

Salaam

[IAMOP]

Whether you open or close your eyes you are looking through Allah's I

[Man of Faith]

You said something true, IAMOP. Your mere existence is an expression of Allah. You find Allah through within yourself rather than looking for something separate. The ascension is reached when one's consciousness is in that 'I', as you said. It is a merging, depending on what word one likes to use.

This is why Jesus said to people to do like him and he said: "I am in the Creator and the Creator is in me", and he said that you will all be an integrated image of the Creator if you do like him and that together as one. My own study of the Gospel words have indicated that son is supposed to mean one who has a place in the realm or kingdom as Jesus phrased it and hardly biological offspring. It is on spiritual level. Father is supposed to symbolize Creator and son is a realized Creation, i.e. a person who truly exists since you can only continue to exist in the Creator.

The physical sight which one may deem as reality is just an artificial phenomenon shaped from the kind of force which is the Sustainer and this "Holy Spirit" (to use traditional "Abrahimic faith" terminology) controls it. By this spirit (illusive) matter is shaped with artificial barriers and features, i.e. the perfect illusion or virtual reality depending on how one wishes to define it.

Salaam

[Student of Allah]

I have talked to so many Atheists in my life in so many different occasions. One of the most argument used by less-learned atheists is: ?God Has Not Revealed Himself to Me, So He Must Not Exist? some other may say: ?One can see God anywhere he wants but that doesn't mean that he exists? 

RED: It takes a seriously dumb person to argue like that. You not seeing or knowing if something exists is not a disproof of that thing's existence.

Blue: I'd agree if it's rephrased. Much like you can claim that whatever guru or baba you follow is the creator of all things. That doesn't make your guru/baba actually and factually so.

A simple response to this argument is to use the popular discussion between a student and his Teacher:

Teacher: Student do you see the tree outside?
Student: Yes.
Teacher: Student, do you see the grass outside?
Student: Yes.
Teacher: Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
Student: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.
Teacher: Did you see God?
Student: No.
Teacher: That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. He doesn't exist.

A Little Girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions. The Teacher agreed and the Little Girl questioned the boy.

Little Girl: Student, do you see the tree outside?
Student: Yes.
Little Girl: Student do you see the grass outside?
Student: Yessssss (getting tired of the questions this time).
Little Girl: Did you see the sky?
Student: Yessssss.
Little Girl: Student, do you see the Teacher?
Student: Yes
Little Girl: Do you see the Teacher's mind?
Student: No.
Little Girl: Then according to what we were taught today in school, she must not have one!

The problem with that little girl's conclusion is two folds:

1. We know that the mind is the product of the brain. We can test and check if the brain is there and if it's functional. Therefore we can be reasonable sure that the person possesses a mind. However, we cannot do anything like that with your God. When was the last time your God agreed to show up for an MRI or other scientific test? Never!

2. How is that girl defining "mind"? If she is talking about the very generic watered down version where some being possesses a mind as long as they can demonstrate the power of thinking, then we can, at the very least, test the teacher's mind indirectly. However, no such methods exist for the demonstration of your God's existence. A nice way of giving you a demo of how unreasonable that kind of thinking is probably the following:

Me: Abdul, do you see the tree outside?
You: Yes.
Me: Abdul do you see the grass outside?
You: Yessssss (getting tired of the questions this time).
Me: Did you see the sky?
You: Yessssss.
Me: Abdul, do you see that computer?
You: Yes
No: Do you see the computer's electrical processes deep inside the CPU?
You: No.
Little Girl: Then according to what we were taught today in school, the computer must not have any electrical processes in the core of it's CPU!

THEREFORE, I just proved to you that a 7 headed divine lion that sweats ice cream exists and created the universe!

If the above doesn't make sense to you, then you should see why that little girl's attempt at arguing for the existence of her God doesn't make sense to me. Surely, you may not have any way of just looking at a computer and seeing all the physical processes that is giving rise to it's functions. But that does not bare witness to the existence of the " 7 headed divine lion that sweats ice cream and created the universe". In the same way, that little girl's argument has nothing to do with a God's existence.


Peace
-------------- Student of Allah

[FreedomStands]

You all will see many Gods, but you'll never see the Truth.