Arrangement of the Quran

[Scribbler]

Muslims,


Peace to you.


For the sake of argument, even if we agree with you for a moment, please tell us what difference does it make if we do not have the chapters of the Quran arranged in accordance to your chronological order?


1. You do not have any proof whatsoever that the chapters of the Quran has been rearranged differently after the death of the prophet.

2. You do not have any proof that your chronological order is the correct order of revelation of the Quran's chapters to the prophet.

3. The Quran gives clear proof that the arrangement of the Quran was already done while the prophet was still alive.


If your way of arrangement was beneficial for the guidance of human being, then surely the prophet would have arranged it that way. But no, he has arranged it the way it should be arranged.

[mmkhan]

another blind accusation from those who claimed God is guiding them. . . . and who knows, maybe it is "clarity"

by the way . . what is common people have to do with deciding the order of the Chapters in the Quran ?

Have they did this before ? Can you provide the proof ?

another accusation . . .and for example. . .

Take note, "mushrik" or "non-mushrik" is about "obedience" to the commands in the Quran, ie. referring to "action" (refer here),
                   not about "faith", ie. tawakkal, reliance , "iman"   . . .

I think you're confused because your comparison between "mushrik" (action) and "tawakkal" (faith) was already irrelevant. .

Therefore . . the claimed about being taught by Allah is nonsense.

That's how it is always be since the beginning. . . .

Just to win, you are twisting your words in all the posts. You never stay at one thing.

Firstly please clarify my reply # 70 of this thread and then we will talk further, inshaAllah and I will clarify what you wrote about me, inshaAllah. And please note that if you continue the way you are doing, I will start a poll about you and lets see clearly what people think about you.


May Allah increase our knowledge and protect us from shaitaan-nir-rajeem
mmKhan

[muslims]

I will start a poll about you and lets see clearly what people think about you.

You are sure desperate, don't you guys have anything else to do other than being a sectarian, make nonsense claim about Allah (mocking),  using the ad hominem and raising irrelevant issues ? Such as using logical explanations to counter people's argument respectfully ?

[muslims]

1. You do not have any proof whatsoever that the chapters of the Quran has been rearranged differently after the death of the prophet.

Where did you get the idea that I'm discussing about this issue ?

2. You do not have any proof that your chronological order is the correct order of revelation of the Quran's chapters to the prophet.

Again, where did get you the idea that I'm discussing about this issue ?

3. The Quran gives clear proof that the arrangement of the Quran was already done while the prophet was still alive.

Prove it. .

If your way of arrangement was beneficial for the guidance of human being, then surely the prophet would have arranged it that way. But no, he has arranged it the way it should be arranged.

You are repeating the issue which I have already answered.

I does not say that the order was correct or perfect, I said "people could start to compare" and it could be any other order.

. . .

This is my argument. . .

So I say . . .

           No change should there be in the creation of Allah
           That is the correct Deen,
           but most of the people do not know
           30.30

the word "creation" is referring to the "Deen", and the "Deen" is referring to the Quran, including its chronological order of the Chapters. It is ways of God to reveal the message to mankind.

Therefore . . .

The chronological order of the verses is the "ways of God", but people have changed it and make the Book hard to understand for many people.

My argument is that it is obvious that the current order is not the original order of the Chapters in the Quran.

Therefore, why people are following that order ?

Do you have any authority to arrange it that way ?

(main issue)

[muslims]

The creator of the thread wished to know what kind of difference it makes if any, and I want to hear and evaluate your arguments if any.

This is the issue . . .

Peace be upon you!

I would like to pose this question to the Quranists in this forum, why wasnt the Mushaf compiled in chronological order?  Does the current arrangement promotes better understanding?

Whether the non chronological order promotes better understanding than the chronological order of the Chapters?

My argument. . the chronological order of the Chapters is the "ways of God" to introduce Islam to the last Prophet, accordingly. . . to all Muslims. It is the syllabus for us to understand Islam, and there is no authority from the Quran for us to change that order, not even Muhammad (or whoever he was). (main issue)


. . .

And answer that and stop diverting from the discussion at hand.

I have been consistent with my issue, and you are diverting the issue from the start, from one point to another, using ad hominem. . . and yet accusing me of diverting the issue ? Another ad hominem ?

main issue

pending issue that need answer


. . .

And I am not debating that right now. I was asking a sincere question about what kind of difference it makes if the chapters are not in a chronological order.

You are repeating the question, I said it is "ways of God". . the "way chooses by Allah to introduce Islam to the last Prophet". . how to read the Quran, the how to purify ourselves, how to implement the rules in the Quran, step by step and according to its awwaliyah, and lastly how to balance the rules in the Quran in different kind of situations (wisdom). It is the syllabus for Muslim to be on the straight path.

The formula . . .

     It is He who has sent among the unlettered
     a Messenger from themselves
          1. reciting to them His verses and
          2. purifying them and
          3. teaching them the Book
          4. and wisdom
     although they were before in clear error
     (62:2)

Now, let's assume Muhammad receive a complete Quran when he became a Prophet, a very beautiful Book perfectly compiles by Allah.

Could he immediately practice all the commands and prohibitions in the Quran, without leaving any single verse?

I believe our situation to understand the true message (wisdom) of the Quran is more difficult than that of the Prophet and the companions.


. . .

but let us say you were right then what kind of negative effect does it have and why?

How many people read and understand the message in the Quran from the whole Muslim Ummah of almost 2 billion peoples ?

100% ?  50% ?  10% ? 1% ?  less than 1% ?

Why ?


(1% = 20 million)

It is curious to note that the study of the Quran is not included in the curriculum. A certain exegesis (Jilalain) is taught that consists of only synonyms of the Quranic words. In the last year of study an exegesis of the second chapter of the Quran is taught (Bazadi). This is the education upon completion of which they receive certification for becoming an aalim (knowledgeable person); The Ulema?Who Are They?

[Man of Faith]

Peace,

there is no authority from the Quran for us to change that order

What kind of order, from what I can see it is in order already whenever I open a copy of the recitation?

I have been consistent with my issue, and you are diverting the issue from the start, from one point to another, using ad hominem. . . and yet accusing me of diverting the issue ? Another ad hominem ?

This is not an ad hominem. It is a request for you to focus at the issue at hand. I am not diverting the thread any more than you do. Now focus on the issue.

It is the syllabus for Muslim to be on the straight path.

I am sure a lot of people simply read the recitation in the order as presented. Would you call them misguided on that basis?

although they were before in clear error

And they were in clear error before because they had not received any messenger previously (according to the narration).

I believe our situation to understand the true message (wisdom) of the Quran is more difficult than that of the Prophet and the companions.

You think so? What kind of argument do you base this claim on? Well, in a way I can agree with you because we have a recitation which interpretation by man has gone distorted over time due to that people "twist the words with their tongues" so to say. See cutting of hands of criminals, beating wife and a lot of other controversies.

How many people read and understand the message in the Quran from the whole Muslim Ummah of almost 2 billion peoples ?

100% ?  50% ?  10% ? 1% ?  less than 1% ?

Why ?

Very few, extremely few.

Because of:

6:116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

12:106 And most of them will not believe in God except while setting up partners.

2:11 And if they are told: ?Do not make corruption in the land,? they say: ?But we are reformers!?

2:85 But then here you are killing each other and expelling a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was unlawful for you to expel them! Do you believe in part of the decree and disbelieve in part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.

And they do not:

2:25 And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers flowing beneath them. Every time they receive a provision of its fruit, they say: ?This is what we have been provisioned before,? and they are given its likeness. And there they will have pure mates, and in it they will abide.

2:83 And We took the covenant of the Children of Israel: ?You shall not serve except God, and do good to your parents, and regard the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and say kind things to the people, and hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards purification.? But then you turned away, except for a few of you; you were objecting.

3:104 And let there be a nation from among you who calls towards goodness, and orders kindness, and prohibits vice. And these are the successful ones.

And they did:

8:39 And fight them all until there is no more oppression, and the entire system is for God. But if they cease, then God is Seer over what they do.

10:23 But when He saves them, they then traverse through the land with injustice. ?O people, what you seek out is only the luxury of this worldly life, then to Us is your return and We will inform you of all that you had done.?

And they did a lot of other things as well, but I got tired of finding things which ought to be obvious. That is why they do not understand the decree and judgment, and they follow conjecture. God curses them as you can read about in chapter 2 for example.

Could he immediately practice all the commands and prohibitions in the Quran, without leaving any single verse?

Most people know the commands and prohibitions already that are in God's decree and there is little to learn that is not know already, particularly for a person who grew up with "Christian values" but likely for others as well. The difficulty is to not forget applying that judgment, always.

What you refer to as "Qur'an" is merely a reminder of what was previously revealed and people, take me for example, grew up with "Christian values" and we already know the rules (except that many do not apply them). So this is why I wonder what kind of "commands and prohibitions" you are talking about.

The biggest struggle is to become harmonized with God and equally harmonious with other people and of sound judgment and calm. The decree is there for people and we all know about it already. It is not so difficult to follow the decree, you said it yourself about "rational thinking".

[muslims]

I was asking a sincere question about what kind of difference it makes if the chapters are not in a chronological order.

How many people read and understand the message in the Quran from the whole Muslim Ummah of almost 2 billion peoples ?

100% ?  50% ?  10% ? 1% ?  less than 1% ?

Why ?


(1% = 20 million)

Very few, extremely few.

This answer is sufficient to support the point I want to make in this thread.

The other question you raise is pointless and just to play with words and divert from the real issue.


. . .

The issue:

Whether the non chronological order promotes better understanding than the chronological order of the Chapters?

My argument. . the chronological order of the Chapters is the "ways of God" to introduce Islam to the last Prophet, accordingly. . . to all Muslims. It is the syllabus for us to understand Islam, and there is no authority from the Quran for us to change that order, not even Muhammad (or whoever he was). (main issue)

main issue

pending issue that need answer

[Man of Faith]

Peace,

How does it support your point? Did you even read all that I wrote?

The reason people cannot understand is because they listen to all the conjecture, they associate partners with God and they do not follow what is decreed upon them and they do not judge with it.

You need support for the claim that a recitation in a different order would help anyone of them. That is not really their problem but the fact they are cursed because of their bad ways and associating teachings never authorized by God into their path.

Perhaps God introduced "Islam" that way to Muhammad, but that does not mean that everyone needs to join the ways of God in the exact same manner. Would you say that people like Ebraheem, Musa, Yunus etc, came to the ways of God through the recitation which was revealed much later. This argument is a sectarian one and much like that Nazarenes say they do not have faith until they join their ways or the Jews said the same thing.

But if we return to the question; it needs more solid arguments or it does simply not matter which order the recitation is narrated as long as the contexts are intact. The (moral) lessons and the decreed elements of God's system are easily extracted from the present context no matter which order you put it.

The way God introduced faith to Muhammad is perhaps interesting to read, but it does not have any particular effect.

And as you know it is all about doing good and oppose evil and vice, and have faith basically while following decreed elements. And you talked yourself about "rational thinking". And I talked about melding with God and seek close proximity and guidance and to harmonize yourself with The Master. What causes the guidance to descend on someone with faith you think?

[muslims]

How does it support your point? Did you even read all that I wrote?

The reason people cannot understand is because they listen to all the conjecture, they associate partners with God and they do not follow what is decreed upon them and they do not judge with it.

Yes I have read, maybe it is just you who are playing with words and don't even read what I have answered.

For example. . .

12:106 And most of them will not believe in God except while setting up partners.

and this what I have mentioned before. . .

You are repeating the question, I said it is "ways of God". . the "way chooses by Allah to introduce Islam to the last Prophet". . how to read the Quran, the how to purify ourselves, how to implement the rules in the Quran, step by step and according to its awwaliyah, and lastly how to balance the rules in the Quran in different kind of situations (wisdom). It is the syllabus for Muslim to be on the straight path.

The formula . . .

     It is He who has sent among the unlettered
     a Messenger from themselves
          1. reciting to them His verses and
          2. purifying them and
          3. teaching them the Book
          4. and wisdom
     although they were before in clear error
     (62:2)

and if you read and understand before you wrote something, you will find out that . . .

         if the Ummah understand the message of the Quran, step by step according to the syllabus
         (ie. according to the ways God introduce Islam to "Muhammad")

         and then, purify themselves

         and then, practice/strengthening what they have understood from the Quran in their real life

         and then, compare what they have understood from the Quran with nature (Sunnatullah) and learn about wisdom,

Then. . they will be saved from what God called as "they were before in clear error"

. . .

However, they have failed at the fist stage, ie. to read and understand the Quran. . .


Why ?

Because it is not in its chronological order of its revelations
and no one know how or where to start practising the Quran
other than listening to their Mullah (forefathers) to explain all those lies. (setting up partners)

         They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah
         9.31

. . .

Tell me. . . what did you feel when you first read the Quran, from Chapter 1, to Chapter 2. . . and the first 10 Chapters ?

Is it boring and confusing ? Is it heavy reading ?

[Man of Faith]

Peace,

My first feeling when I begun reading it was that it confirmed what I knew and I felt that it was from God.

Other than this the decree is easy to learn and memorize.

But you are right that they have taken their leaders as gods besides God and gotten into a lot of conjecture for sure. It seems easy for people to fall into that trap. Tendency to idolization and attachment to what you see and hear is one maze  reason to this, particularly when someone you admire gives you this iispression. And people follow others like lemmings instead of having a critical approach and they trust leaders etc because the bigger pack does the same. It is like the recitation says "This is how our ancestors did it". "What if your ancestors were lost and not guided?" And humans seem to love laws, Jews are said to have 603 (religious) laws. I doubt "Muslims" are any worse (not you).

However I do not agree that any possible chronological order would matter much against the above fact about "to follow like lemmings". People would do that regardless of how perfect and fresh text you supplied them with. People would be deceived by falsehood, or nonsense as you call it because humans take idols no matter because they are succumbing to "the whispers" of Satan. Look at the Islam religion. People are completely obsessed with Muhammad and everything, rituals, lifestyle, all is circulating around this innocent man from over 1000 years ago instead of God. Thus they have made a clear distinction between the messengers and no chronological "Quran" order can correct that because even if people had only chapter 2 of it that would suffice to know that God is one, has no partners and no distinction ahould be made between the messengers, or the angels or anyone. God is the only center of concentration and God is the only one that provides guidance and seeking God is what brings you closer to The Master. If they seek God through Muhammad, or Jesus or whoever then they will surely walk astray.

And if you would skip the detailed recitation to Muhammad and followed what was decreed to Moses then you would be guided too. That is why I said that your faith is determined by the way you are living and acting, by decree and judgment and how much you have harmonized yourself with God alone. God will provide guidance on that basis. If someone does good deeds, follows the decree, melds and purifies and then shows good faith they have noting to fear nor will they grieve.

And to humble myself; I admit that I do not have any evidence that the recitation (Quran) is in the order as intended by God. But I do not buy the story you come with about that the majority agrees because that is a fallible argument, in MY opinion, as we know "if you obey the majority of people" and what you said about "mullahs". And I am doubtful of ANY material that comes from the so-called 'hadith of Muhammad' or works of Islamic clerics. I keep the recitation in the order it is because I see no difference in that. But to your comfort I admit that it does not matter if you would change it to your theory or reality about chronological order. Perhaps I might test to see it your way at some point to see perhaps it opens up for a more coherent reading even if I doubt it would make me understand more than I know. I have seen that the lessons from reciting comes from the direct contexts where you are.

My biggest comfort lately has been the unraveling of all "misinterpretations" in the usage of Arabic words and their base meanings. It was a big relief with the cut hands for example or wife beating. And that there are no hated disbelievers but hated opponents of God, and everyone is a potential believer until opposing God. The direct threats of Hell is on those who spread corruption and mischief. And let us harmonize ourselves with God.

With the "corrections" to the recitation it looks more like the faith from the Christianity I knew, minus the association of Jesus with God and the trinity. Unitarian Christians are quite guided people as long as they follow the decree and judgement and have faith and do good.

Salaam