Arrangement of the Quran

[mmkhan]

Salaam,

I am surprised to see such a bold claim or I should say a white lie

This is my contention . . .

ie. the Chapters is not the original order of its revelations , and everyone agree on this. . .

Therefore, do you agree on this ?

Red: I don't see even a single person agrees to this claim of yours.

I have presented the proof that the Chapters are not in its original order, and it is not the ways of God for that revelation to be in that order.

It is the facts which have been acknowledged by all Muslims.

This is my burden of proof.

Red: Really? Where? I am reading this thread from the first post and I did not find any proof from you yet

Seriously bro, I have a question for you. Are you retired and passing your free time here or ....... ? Please don't mind, I am just curious after going through your many many posts.


May Allah protect us
mmKhan

[muslims]

If you read the original post of the thread you can see that he is asking what kind of difference it makes.

No. . I don't belong to any sect and I only answer the issue of this thread, regardless of his background as Shia etc.

Does the current arrangement promotes better understanding?

[muslims]

I am surprised to see such a bold claim or I should say a white lie

Do you expect the contention is specifically referring to the common people or scholars and experts ?

and see ? How quick you suggesting people are lying , and yet claimed God is guiding you. . nonsense.


. . .

Red: Really? Where? I am reading this thread from the first post and I did not find any proof from you yet

Read again. . .

All Muslims and the non Muslims have unanimously acknowledged the order in the Quran is NOT its original order of the revelations, Therefore, I don't have to prove anything unless and until it is proven otherwise. Which is . . . it is your burden of proof to make a counterargument and contest their evidence. Only then the other party has to make a rebuttal argument to contests what you have presented as evidence.

. . .

Seriously bro, I have a question for you. Are you retired and passing your free time here or ....... ? Please don't mind, I am just curious after going through your many many posts.

What does this got to do with the issue of this thread ?

[Man of Faith]

Peace,

The issue IS if it makes any difference. Not about any sect belonging. That is the question here.

[muslims]

Issue: chronological order + arrangement + promotes + better understanding


Chronological order = The ways of God to reveal the chapters to the last Prophet, for better understanding of the rules in the Quran.

So I say . . .

           No change should there be in the creation of Allah
           That is the correct Deen,
           but most of the people do not know
           30.30

the word "creation" is referring to the "Deen", and the "Deen" is referring to the Quran, including its chronological order of the Chapters. It is ways of God to reveal the message to mankind.

[Man of Faith]

Peace,

Okay. But do you have any example that justifies your claim that it improves understanding?

[mmkhan]

Do you expect the contention is specifically referring to the common people or scholars and experts ?

You said
This is my contention . . .

ie. the Chapters is not the original order of its revelations , and everyone agree on this. . .

Therefore, do you agree on this ?

And you are very good at changing the topic and twisting and playing with words. I was clearly referring to your claim which is bold in red above.

and see ? How quick you suggest people of "white lie", and yet claimed God is guiding you. . nonsense.

Did I claimed so? Where? Show me! This another white lie.

Read again. . .

What does this got to do with the issue of this thread ?

It has nothing to do with the issue and I clearly said that I am just curious. Is there anything to hide to answer it?

Because I found your posts are like:
Meat + rice + spices = Biryani

Biryani means hunger. When you feel hungry don't you like to eat a good dish i.e., Biryani.

This is my burden of proof


May Allah protect us
mmKhan

[muslims]

And you are very good at changing the topic and twisting and playing with words. I was clearly referring to your claim which is bold in red above.

another blind accusation from those who claimed God is guiding them. . . . and who knows, maybe it is "clarity"

by the way . . what is common people have to do with deciding the order of the Chapters in the Quran ?

Have they did this before ? Can you provide the proof ?




. . .

Did I claimed so? Where? Show me! This another white lie.

another accusation . . .and for example. . .

I will write here whatever I was taught by Allah about doing tawakkal [rely or be solely dependent] on Allah or else be a mushrik, with the permission of my Lord, Allah alone.

Take note, "mushrik" or "non-mushrik" is about "obedience" to the commands in the Quran, ie. referring to "action" (refer here),
                   not about "faith", ie. tawakkal, reliance , "iman"   . . .

I think you're confused because your comparison between "mushrik" (action) and "tawakkal" (faith) was already irrelevant. .

Therefore . . the claimed about being taught by Allah is nonsense.



. . .

It has nothing to do with the issue and I clearly said that I am just curious. Is there anything to hide to answer it?

Because I found your posts are like:
Meat + rice + spices = Biryani

Biryani means hunger. When you feel hungry don't you like to eat a good dish i.e., Biryani.

This is my burden of proof

That's how it is always be since the beginning. . . .

Argumentum Ad Hominem

The fallacy consists in an attempt to refute someone by making disparaging remarks about him rather than by responding to his argument. In other words, not the argument but the man (L. homo, "man") behind the argument is attacked. The nobles of the people of Noah rejected him and criticized his followers on the following grounds:

"We see that you are just a human being like us. We see that only those people have followed you who are quite obviously the lowliest among us. And we see the you are in no way superior to us. In fact, we suspect that you are liars." (11:27)

In other words: Noah'a message must be rejected because his followers happen to be such - and - such people (see also 26:11). 21:36 says that the Quraysh start making fun of Muhammad the moment they catch sight of him, and pay no attention to his message. For other examples of this fallacy, see 23:47 (Pharaoh and courtiers/Moses and Aaron), 26:27 (Pharaoh/Moses), 26:153-154 (Thamud/Prophet Salih), 26:185 (Madyanites/Shu`aib), 43:52 (Pharaoh/Moses).

Pharaoh had some very dirty tactics to get what he wanted, or keep people from turning against him. One of these tricks was to corrupt the natural criteria for rational thought.

A person?s rational criteria (method of judgment) is the very basis upon which he knows truth from falsehood. And the rational criteria for truth is that the subject at hand must fully conform to reality (i.e. must be proven through the sensed reality via our five senses).

Now, when we look at verses from the Qur?an, we can see the followers of Pharaoh attempt to change the criteria of rational thinking to that of irrational thinking:

فَلَمَّا جَاءَهُمْ مُوسَى بِآيَاتِنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ قَالُوا مَا هَذَا إِلاّ سِحْرٌ مُفْتَرًى وَمَا سَمِعْنَا بِهَذَا فِي آبَائِنَا الْأَوَّلِينَ

?So when Moses (pbuh) came to them with our clear signs, they said ?this is nothing but fake magic, and we did not hear of this from our forefathers? ? [Al-Qasas:36].


What do their forefathers sayings have to do with Moses (pbuh) being a Prophet? What kind of rational thought is this? According to this logic, this would mean: whatever does not come via their forefathers is not truth. This is despite that reality and truth are not proven through forefathers, or parents, or an imam, or some organization, rather it is proven by the sensed reality and rational proof.

[muslims]

Okay. But do you have any example that justifies your claim that it improves understanding?

I said. . .

The ways of God to reveal the chapters

AND where is your proof ? (main issue)

[Man of Faith]

Peace,

And I am not debating that right now. I was asking a sincere question about what kind of difference it makes if the chapters are not in a chronological order.

And I said hypothetically if you were right, I did not agree, but let us say you were right then what kind of negative effect does it have and why? And answer that and stop diverting from the discussion at hand. The creator of the thread wished to know what kind of difference it makes if any, and I want to hear and evaluate your arguments if any.