Meaning of KAFIROON = CONTRAVENER

[Man of Faith]

Peace existential,

I do not care if he disagrees with my arguments but he can not pick my research and then simply change the word and say I was wrong while his new word has more or less the same meaning. He actually indirectly gives credit to my translation while it appears he does not.

It is a kind of joke to be honest because contravene has a more complex meaning than the simple k - f - r with two syllables. Oppose is just a mental image that tells you to... just oppose something. Work against something. And analyze contra - vene and you see that it virtually means the same thing just a more rare word.

That was why I asked if it was mockery of what I said because it looked so lame.

God bless you

[muslims]

I do not care if he disagrees with my arguments but he can not pick my research and then simply change the word and say I was wrong while his new word has more or less the same meaning. He actually indirectly gives credit to my translation while it appears he does not.

That's why I started this thread with the following statement . . .

"Those who oppose harmony and balance in the system are your kafiroon"

This is in response to the Man of Faith's argument that the word "Kafiroon" means "Opposition"

I couldn't agree with the translation. . and also,

I couldn't agree with all the translations that it means as "Disbeliever" or "Denier" etc. . .

. . .

It is a kind of joke to be honest because contravene has a more complex meaning than the simple k - f - r with two syllables. Oppose is just a mental image that tells you to... just oppose something. Work against something. And analyze contra - vene and you see that it virtually means the same thing just a more rare word.

That was why I asked if it was mockery of what I said because it looked so lame.

Try refer to some "legal dictionary" . . so that you can understand what is the word suitable for breach of covenant or contract.

It is not "opposition", "disbeliever", "rejecter" or "denier". . . but it is "contravene", in contravention of the terms and conditions of contract, ie. the Quran.

The Quran is the terms and conditions of our contract with Allah. It is our covenant.

[Yamibato]

Hmmmmmm...
that was a very informative post, and to be honest, according to my understanding, this meaning of Kafiroon is closer to what you have explained, than what they have said so far about it.

But honestly, I have to take yours as an opinion as well, I will put that in the list of meanings for this word, until the day comes where I can connect all the points and get the whole meaning.

So far, I have never thought of it this way, so this is totally new to me, but I will be honest, I have FELT that it might mean this way, i.e the way you explained it.

However I have known about this verse (7:172) of the testification, and with knowing that verse, and knowing "Kafir" comes from the root word "Kufr", which means "to hide, to conceal"...

So I have felt like when the messengers come to those people and to us, we all have this "Inner gut" feeling that (THIS IS IT!).. but we will hide -kufr- it because of something else.

Lets take a reference (for the sake of example not evidence) from the Biography of Muhammad, you know very well that his Uncle abu Lahab never believed in him, and the Qur'an has talked about him. There was a scene where Muhammad was asking his uncle "Why don't you believe in me when I have shown you that I'm a prophet from God"
his uncle replied "If I was convinced that you were, then I would have believed in you, but I know you are a liar so I don't think you are a messenger"

After that Muhammad leaves, and Abu Lahab tells the guy next to him "I know he is not a liar, I know he is a messenger, the reason why I refuse to believe in him is because God didn't choose a man from our sect of the Quraysh tribe to be a prophet, be he chose it from the other sect."

So as an example, I think you know now How I have understood Kufr so far...

And to me Kufr is not far away from meaning "Reject" as well... but I doubt it to be that simple...

Peace,
Thank you very much for that explanation,
Please criticize comment on my understanding,
So I may learn more, and correct my self in case I was wrong.

Yami.

[Man of Faith]

But it does not mean break a covenant it simply means oppose, simply oppose God or oppose the messenger or oppose whoever person, and your choice of word is not particularly different in meaning. It is just plagiarism. It is interesting that you can derive a such complicated meaning out of a very primitive word with only two syllables.

And this is why I wondered if you were just compiling this thread out of mockery at first. But at a second glance it seems you are serious.

[muslims]

But it does not mean break a covenant it simply means oppose, simply oppose God or oppose the messenger or oppose whoever person, and your choice of word is not particularly different in meaning.

God is claiming our promise , our testimonial. . .ie. our Covenant, so that He can fulfil His promise to us.

                       O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you
                       and fulfill My covenant [upon you]
                       that I will fulfill your covenant [from Me],
                       and be afraid of [only] Me.
                       2.40

and I'm not interested in circular reasoning or argument by repetition . .

              It is to oppose. It is to oppose. It is to oppose.
              It is to oppose. It is to oppose. It is to oppose.
              Therefore , it is to oppose.

It will bring more light to the discussion if we can give reasons for our counterargument.

[Man of Faith]

I prefer to leave your discussion. You can discuss it with whomever you wish. You have my arguments and that is enough.

[muslims]

So far, I have never thought of it this way

Many are, but when people try to find out why God are claiming so many things from us,
Then we will try to look out who made such promises in the first place. .

It is us who promise to God, and now many are breaking the terms and conditions of their Contract with God, i.e. the Quran.

So. . it is fair, it is our decision. . . and it is our mistake to make such promises to God!

                  Indeed, we offered the Trust (Covenant, Contract)
                                    to the heavens
                                    and the earth
                                    and the mountains,
                                    and they declined to bear it and feared it;
                  but man [undertook to] bear it.
                  Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant.
                  33.72

Men are ignorant. . .

[muslims]

Some example. . . suitable word when it is relating to breach of contract or breach of law and order.

Contravention ? when a court finds a party has not complied with (followed) a court order , that party is in contravention of (or has breached) the order (e.g. word to be used if it is relation to the God's order?).


Attorney General v Bennet

The respondent in this case (whom I shall refer to as "the accused" hereafter for convenience) was charged in the High Court firstly with possession of weaponry with the intention to commit an act of insurgency, banditry, sabotage or terrorism in contravention of s 10(1) of the Public Order and Security Act [Chapter 11:17].   Arising from that charge were alternative charges of ?

(a)        possession of dangerous weapons in contravention of s 11(1) of the Public Order and Security Act; or

(b)        unlawful possession of prohibited firearms in contravention of s 24(1)(d) of the Firearms Act [Chapter 10:09]; or

(c)        unlawful possession of firearms in contravention of s 4 of the Firearms Act.

On the second count, the accused was charged with incitement to commit, or conspiracy to commit, an act of insurgency in contravention of s 6 of the Public Order and Security Act.

I.C. Golaknath and Ors. vs State of Punjab and Anrs.

"The State shall not make any law which takes away or abridges the right conferred by this Part and any law made in contravention of this clause shall, to the extent of contravention, be void." The Court also ruled that Fundamental Rights included in Part III of the Constitution are given a "transcendental position"

I believe no one should use "oppose" if it is related to breach of contract or breach/violation of law and order, it is quite absurd to use that term. Go ask any lawyers, or those with legal backgrounds. . . What terms they used when speaking in court or drafting legal documents? "Oppose" or "in contravention"?  . . . Therefore, it is quite absurd to use the term "disbeliever", "rejecter", "denier", "opposition" when it is relating to the violation of law and order in the Quran, when it is relating to "compliance".

However and when we used the word "contravene", people will asked contravene what ? Therefore, people will be reminded and the context will be closely related to their Covenant with God, ie. their promises and the terms and conditions of their Covenant in the Quran. All these terms and conditions is referring to Islam, and Muslim are those who obey their promises to God. The non Muslim are those who breach or in contravention of their Covenant. The focus is now on the Quran, on balance and justice . . . and not on belief that cannot be proven through facts. It is about balance, and it is about justice.

[muslims]

Disbeliever = Contravener
Muslim = Conformer

con?form  [kuhn-fawrm]  Show IPA
verb (used without object)
1. to act in accordance or harmony; comply (usually followed by to  ): to conform to rules.
2. to act in accord with the prevailing standards, attitudes, practices, etc., of society or a group: One has to conform in order to succeed in this company.
3. to be or become similar in form, nature, or character.
4. to be in harmony or accord.
5. to comply with the usages of an established church, especially the Church of England.

conform  (kənˈfɔːm)

? vb  (usually foll by to ) (usually foll by with )
1.   to comply in actions, behaviour, etc, with accepted standards or norms
2.   to be in accordance; fit in: he conforms with my idea of a teacher
3.   to make or become similar in character or form
4.   ( intr ) to comply with the practices of an established church, esp the Church of England
5.   ( tr ) to bring (oneself, ideas, etc) into harmony or agreement

[C14: from Old French conformer,  from Latin confirmāre  to establish, strengthen, from  firmāre  to make firm, from firmus firm 1 ]

con'former

? n

con'formingly

? adv


con?form  (kn-f?rm)
v. con?formed, con?form?ing, con?forms
v.intr.
1. To correspond in form or character; be similar.
2. To act or be in accord or agreement; comply: a computer that conforms to the manufacturer's advertising claims. See Synonyms at agree.
3. To act in accordance with current customs or modes. See Synonyms at adapt.
v.tr.
To bring into agreement or correspondence; make similar.

[muslims]

another example to show that our relationship with God is a contractual or based on our covenant with Allah

                       A generation came after them who inherited the Scripture,
                       but they took the materialism of this world, which is lower; and they say:
                       ?It will be forgiven for us.?
                       And if materialism again comes to them they take it;

                       was not the COVENANT of the Scripture taken on them that they would only say the truth about God?
                       And they studied what was in it;
                       but the abode of the Hereafter is better for those who are aware.
                       Do you not comprehend?
                       7.169