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Muslim women allowed to marry non-Muslim men?

Started by N00B, June 02, 2014, 04:00:53 AM

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N00B

Salaamu Alaikum,
 
I'm recently researching about interfaith marriage in Islam (through Qu'ran).
As a result, according to traditional Muslims, men can marry People of the Book but women are forbidden to marry any non-Muslim men. Their reasoning is based on cultural justification and using a portion of the original verse.I find it absurd because of the way they interpret it. :(


Here are the verse about interfaith marriage (using Yusuf Ali translation):

Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But God beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. 2:221

This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). 5:5



  So, one verse forbids Muslim men AND women to marry polytheist/unbelieving people and the another verse expresses the permission for Muslim men to marry Christian and Jewish women. Nowhere in the Qu'ran forbids Muslim women to marry nor expresses the permission to marry men from the People of the Book.

  Traditional Muslims forbids women to marry non-Muslims by implying the 'unbelieving men' are Christians and Jews with the polytheists.
If unbelievers=Christians/Jews, then they are also implying to the verse 2:221, forbidding Muslim men marrying 'unbelievers' and the contradiction to the verse 5:5, the permission the marry women from the People of the Book.
Just because the Qu'ran is silent about the issue of Muslim women marrying People of the Book, that does not mean it is forbidden.

My conclusion is that Muslim women are not forbidden to marry non-Muslims that are not 'unbelievers'.

But here are the questions that I am stuck with:

1.What are 'believers' according to Qu'ran? Are they only Muslims or they can belong to any monotheist religions?

2.What are 'unbelievers' according to Qu'ran? What are the characteristics of them and can they be implied to Muslims too?

huruf

It seems absurd to put forth 5.5 to question a different rule for muslim women, because such as the aya runs, then in fact muslim women could not marry at all anybody, because where the men "are allowed" to marry women of the book they are also "allowed" to marry women believers, so , in turn, women should not be allowed to marry believing men. It is so absurd it cries out. In fact what the aya is saying is that IF men marry women believers of from the people of the book they must abide by the rules set for them, that is, pay them their retribution and not with secret dealings and all that. According to those who use this aya to impose restrictions on believing women then men would also be allowed not to pay their retribution totheir believing wives and would be allowed to seeks them unchastely. Typical obssession with male's special relationships with God.

As to what is considered to be believers in the Qur'an, I think there may be many attributions in the Qur'an not just a definition. But it is a good start with the first aya of al Baqara. At any rate I doubt that its description would be burocratic but rather a matter of the conscience and heart. No paper official paper would define a believer. So, I think that ultimately it would all revolve around the one who wants to marry's own inner belief as to the attitude if his or her pretended. Who can better know if a person believes or not than those who know her or him more closely? Unless we think the Qur'an is giving burocratic rules, which I do not think is so. The appreciation and the decision falls on the marrying person and of course, since people in love tend to be a little or much blind, sincere advice would not be out of place, but particularly, uder any circumstances, sufficient guarantees that prove the contractors good faith.

Salaam

Man of Faith

Peace,

People have little knowledge of what they are saying.

For all I know it is discouraged and told against taking associators (mushriks) to be spouses because they invite to Hell as they have hearkened to the whispers of Shaytaan in just following other things than God decreed for the people of faith. They are possible opponents (kafiroon) in words and action because of their biased understanding of God's decree and they uphold things never authorized by God so they will make life hard for someone with faith.

I have a living example of that with my wife as she turned into a hardcore mushrik because she had faith in her Shia clerics and myths about legendary imams that were righteous and to follow the conjecture that circulate around them.

God bless you
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Man of Faith

QuoteHere are the verse about interfaith marriage (using Yusuf Ali translation):

Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But God beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. 2:221

It does say that you should not marry associators (mushriks), unless they show faith. And they are not mushriks if they show faith because then they know God is the guide and not his missionaries and prophets. And faith we know what it means right?

God bless you
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

N00B

Quote from: Man of Faith on June 02, 2014, 07:34:05 AM
Peace,

People have little knowledge of what they are saying.

For all I know it is discouraged and told against taking associators (mushriks) to be spouses because they invite to Hell as they have hearkened to the whispers of Shaytaan in just following other things than God decreed for the people of faith. They are possible opponents (kafiroon) in words and action because of their biased understanding of God's decree and they uphold things never authorized by God so they will make life hard for someone with faith.

I have a living example of that with my wife as she turned into a hardcore mushrik because she had faith in her Shia clerics and myths about legendary imams that were righteous and to follow the conjecture that circulate around them.

God bless you

I'm not surprised about your experience, some 'Muslims' can be mushriks by falling into wrong path of faith. In my experience, I know some men who called themselves 'Muslims', does not follow the guidelines from the Qu'ran by treating their wives like slaves and living in mendacity.

Man of Faith

Exactly,  then they have not harmonized themselves with God.

God bless you
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Zulf

I think it is important to take the quranic statements as guidelines for each individual, to follow a per his or her own decision. The reason for this is that we cannot really know about someone else what they really are, believer, unbeliever, mushrik, hypocrite. Actually, often we don't even know ourselves. Everyone, regardless of faith, believes they are guided and on the right track, even atheists.

The stupidity enters when people judge each other as this or that and then institute laws about who can or cannot marry whom. These societal laws about who is allowed to marry whom is just a way of the authority to boss around other people and shove their own rulings, culture, traditions, prejudice and ego down the throat of the general public.

If we are wise we should ponder what kind of person (what kind of mentality and outlook) it would be sensible to marry. We should look in the right direction and not be fooled by carnal temptations that will end up in nothing. By in the end... often times, birds of a feather flock together, or else there will be misery/friction /divorce.

Peace
If you name me, you negate me.

Man of Faith

Peace Zulf,

Not to try to act arrogantly, but you can know if someone is a mushrik or perform shirk. However that does not give someone the right to simply curse them and become aggressive against them. Simple dialog and friendly discussion is okay and put forth your arguments, but there is no compulsion to heed them. And to try to force your views upon someone with violence or threats of vioence causes just about anyone to be an opponent (kafir) of God.

It is people that aggress and oppress others that should be fought and nobody else. To follow or not follow God is voluntary, but you should not become someone who corrupts, extorts or oppress.

And there are no Christians, Jews, Muslims etc " religions" but just groups of different people with their ways and they will be judged as individuals and not of being Muslims or whatever they call themselves. Group belonging does not matter but only that the person to marry is not following strange teachings and other weirdness.

God bless you

Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Zulf

Quote from: Man of Faith on June 07, 2014, 09:58:21 AM
Peace Zulf,

Not to try to act arrogantly, but you can know if someone is a mushrik or perform shirk. However that does not give someone the right to simply curse them and become aggressive against them. Simple dialog and friendly discussion is okay and put forth your arguments, but there is no compulsion to heed them. And to try to force your views upon someone with violence or threats of vioence causes just about anyone to be an opponent (kafir) of God.

It is people that aggress and oppress others that should be fought and nobody else. To follow or not follow God is voluntary, but you should not become someone who corrupts, extorts or oppress.

And there are no Christians, Jews, Muslims etc " religions" but just groups of different people with their ways and they will be judged as individuals and not of being Muslims or whatever they call themselves. Group belonging does not matter but only that the person to marry is not following strange teachings and other weirdness.

God bless you

Exactly.

Peace  :)
If you name me, you negate me.

Ikrame

If i ever get to mary i rather mary a non believer than a sunni, who approves killing of women who cheat and killing people who left the sunnism.
I plan to leave this world the way i entered it.
Kicking and screaming

Sonny

Quote from: Ikrame on June 09, 2014, 09:27:32 AM
If i ever get to mary i rather mary a non believer than a sunni, who approves killing of women who cheat and killing people who left the sunnism.

You clearly have no idea what sunnism is. Thing you are talking about is wahhabism/salafism and not sunni islam.

N00B

Quote from: Ikrame on June 09, 2014, 09:27:32 AM
If i ever get to mary i rather mary a non believer than a sunni, who approves killing of women who cheat and killing people who left the sunnism.

Same here 

hawk99

Quote from: Ikrame on June 09, 2014, 09:27:32 AM
If i ever get to mary i rather mary a non believer  than a sunni, who approves killing of women who cheat and killing people who left the sunnism.

Peace,

Quote,  i rather mary a non believer  than a sunni  :nope:

1.  idolators are not permitted for believers to marry.  2/221

2.  Many sunni do not subscribe to " killing of women who cheat and killing people who left the sunnism"
     in the U.S.

  God bless

     :peace:
The secret to monotheism can be found in the garden

Ikrame

Yeah i do know maybe you should look it yourself up. You see it happening in middel east country s women being stoned. Under the sharia i probably would be killed  :peace:
I plan to leave this world the way i entered it.
Kicking and screaming

JavaLatte

Quote from: Ikrame on June 09, 2014, 09:27:32 AM
If i ever get to mary i rather mary a non believer than a sunni,


But is it permissible for us to marry non believers?

Does God give permit for such thing?


Peace.   :)
[33:72] Verily, We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to bear it and they were afraid of it; but man bear it - verily, he was transgressing, ignorant.

Ikrame

I plan to leave this world the way i entered it.
Kicking and screaming

Sonny

Quote from: Ikrame on June 09, 2014, 02:19:28 PM
Yeah i do know maybe you should look it yourself up. You see it happening in middel east country s women being stoned. Under the sharia i probably would be killed  :peace:

what is your 'crime', adultery?

Ikrame

Lol no im single i was refering to leaving the sunnism i would be facing death penalty. I gave stoning as an example of cruelty its always women involved probably by gossip i can t imagine a woman who is shitting her pants of fear to dare to practice such an act under sharia law but that just my view
I plan to leave this world the way i entered it.
Kicking and screaming

JavaLatte

[33:72] Verily, We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to bear it and they were afraid of it; but man bear it - verily, he was transgressing, ignorant.

Sonny

Quote from: JavaLatte on June 09, 2014, 05:11:42 PM
>:(   :elektro:

Be polite please...  :)


Peace.

I wasnt rude at all, it was a question not an accusation.  :peace:

N00B

Besides,I'm not implying that ALL Sunnis think that way.

Noon waalqalami

Quote from: N00B on June 02, 2014, 04:00:53 AM
Here are the verse about interfaith marriage (using Yusuf Ali translation):

Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But God beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. 2:221

Peace -- address is to same general populace and doesn't say "nor marry your girls"...

2:221
ولا and not تنكحوا thou marry yeh of المشركات the idolaters (f/p) حتى until ىومن believe they ولامه and surely handmaiden مومنه believer (f/s) خىر better من from مشركه idolatress ولو and in case اعجبتكم like her you

ولا and not تنكحوا thou marry yeh of المشركىن the idolaters (m/p) حتى until ىومنوا believe they of ولعبد and manservant (m/s) مومن believer خىر better من from مشرك idolater ولو and in case اعجبكم like him you

اولىك surely those ىدعون calling الى to النار the fire والله and the god ىدعو invites الى to الجنه the garden/paradise والمغفره and the forgiveness باذنه by permission his وىبىن and makes clear اىاته verses/signs his للناس to the humankind لعلهم that may they ىتذكرون those remembering

Existential1

Quote from: Noon waalqalami on June 12, 2014, 03:48:55 AM
Peace -- address is to same general populace and doesn't say "nor marry your girls"...

2:221
ولا and not تنكحوا thou marry yeh of المشركات the idolaters (f/p) حتى until ىومن believe they ولامه and surely handmaiden مومنه believer (f/s) خىر better من from مشركه idolatress ولو and in case اعجبتكم like her you

ولا and not تنكحوا thou marry yeh of المشركىن the idolaters (m/p) حتى until ىومنوا believe they of ولعبد and manservant (m/s) مومن believer خىر better من from مشرك idolater ولو and in case اعجبكم like him you

اولىك surely those ىدعون calling الى to النار the fire والله and the god ىدعو invites الى to الجنه the garden/paradise والمغفره and the forgiveness باذنه by permission his وىبىن and makes clear اىاته verses/signs his للناس to the humankind لعلهم that may they ىتذكرون those remembering


Is this an example of my lack of knowledge of Arabic biting me in the butt again?  Insha'allah man, I'll be reading soon  :'(  I read each of these translations http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=221 and some corroborate his (brother Noon's) interpretation.  That Mohsin Khan version seems to be the most equitable.

Typically when people try to argue things are unequal or unjust in the Quran, I feel like it has to be a mistranslation or misreading.

:peace:


huruf

Brother Noon is right, no "marry your girls".

There are a lot of mistranslations, which often also come from a reading of the original which is not grounded on the original itself.

What we read never falls on a void. It falls on all our previous consciously or unconsciouslly grounded ideas, default conceptions we have of everything.

For instance, for those with a default worldview, unsconscious mostly , that the male is the human being per se, everything they read will fall on the assumption that what is said is as a function of the human being, the male.

There is a lot of that in the most common understandings of the Qur'an. And no matter what it says or what is intended, any understanding will fall flat on that fact.

We still see, no less than years ago, that most film, theater, novel or any fiction production is still full of male parts and that the proportion of female parts is much much shorter. Males are the human beings, women an exception, and  accessory at that, for the brilliance of the male.

The Qur'an, to get into the minds and instill the love for womanhood, has a very uphill task.

Salaam

N00B

Quote from: Noon waalqalami on June 12, 2014, 03:48:55 AM
Peace -- address is to same general populace and doesn't say "nor marry your girls"...

2:221
ولا and not تنكحوا thou marry yeh of المشركات the idolaters (f/p) حتى until ىومن believe they ولامه and surely handmaiden مومنه believer (f/s) خىر better من from مشركه idolatress ولو and in case اعجبتكم like her you

ولا and not تنكحوا thou marry yeh of المشركىن the idolaters (m/p) حتى until ىومنوا believe they of ولعبد and manservant (m/s) مومن believer خىر better من from مشرك idolater ولو and in case اعجبكم like him you

اولىك surely those ىدعون calling الى to النار the fire والله and the god ىدعو invites الى to الجنه the garden/paradise والمغفره and the forgiveness باذنه by permission his وىبىن and makes clear اىاته verses/signs his للناس to the humankind لعلهم that may they ىتذكرون those remembering


So how does it makes a difference in the interpretation of this modification?

Man of Faith

Peace,

Just so you are observant. If you translate and work on a passage you need to be aware that a word can have a faulty meaning and you may have to cross check is with all occurrences of the word and also parse the literal quality on your testing. That way I have understood problematic passages while studying. And trust me; you cannot put too much faith in dictionaries or translations. And be not too quick in believing your own works too. And if it is not a righteous translation (as in polygamy or cutting of hands or praying birds) then it is probably not true either.

I am interested in delving into the alleged polygamy too at some point, but after the salat the mystery about Ramadan is next on my to do list because it affects both you and me more.

God bless you
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Timotheus

Quote from: Ikrame on June 09, 2014, 09:27:32 AM
If i ever get to mary i rather mary a non believer than a sunni, who approves killing of women who cheat and killing people who left the sunnism.

'sunnis' are idol worshipers, why not marry someone who follows the Quran alone? it clearly condemns terrorism, aggression etc
What could i say that is better than what God has already informed us of?
Follow God
Seek His guidance, the only guidance
Glory and Praise be to God, rabbil Aalameen

NewFrenzy

If you want to marry a polythiest commit Zina with him.
24:3

Rilum

Salaam/Peace all,

I think Jews and Christians, if they worship only God, are rather also believers.

"Unbelievers" would be the persons who do not judge according to what God has sent down.

Salaam/Peace all.

reel

Quote from: Rilum on August 20, 2018, 06:10:29 AM
Salaam/Peace all,

I think Jews and Christians, if they worship only God, are rather also believers.

"Unbelievers" would be the persons who do not judge according to what God has sent down.

Salaam/Peace all.

That's what I concluded also. A current atheist may also be okay if he is actually living according to God's law even without being aware. Apparently, majority of the atheists go back to  him especially after marriage or when they start facing life's big responsibilities.

Edit: Forgot medical conditions. It is unhealthy to panic all the time and that's what you get without God.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj