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Money in Bankaccount. Haram

Started by NielsJacob, May 20, 2014, 03:53:04 AM

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NielsJacob

Peace.

I have some money in bank, where I get a small interest rate.


The bank is using my money to loan out, and I get a part of that interest.
But also I pay some fees to have that account. So maybe I don?t really get any at the button

But anyway. Ain?t that wrong no matter what?
Or what do you think?

Man of Faith

Peace,

There is a problem in the interpretation of the recitation. People think that it refers to that any interest is forbidden, but it refers to usury as in unrighteously acquiring money. If you issue a decree with the bank where they agree to lend your money for interest this is not unrighteous and wrong as you both agree on this transaction and you are the one lending the bank money. Both are in ageement to this business deal. Related verses are talking about ripping people of money by shady deals etc.

Excessive interest rates are usury however which unfortunately sadly enough are very prominent on the market.

But wisest is to avoid getting in debt as much as one can and only buy what you can afford. Borrowing money is living beyond your means and is only a (bad) emergency solution. Rather buy a used car or buy a smaller house, or rent it although it is kind of borrowing it. Problem is that the world has normalized the scenario of borrowing money which you see the results of when people get into economic crises.

God bless you
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

JavaLatte

Quote from: NielsJacob on May 20, 2014, 03:53:04 AM
Peace.

I have some money in bank, where I get a small interest rate.


The bank is using my money to loan out, and I get a part of that interest.
But also I pay some fees to have that account. So maybe I don?t really get any at the button

But anyway. Ain?t that wrong no matter what?
Or what do you think?


I also wonder about the similar thing.  :-\

Still not sure if I can take bank interest to pay for my needs.

To have the bank account is very useful for various transactions, payments, etc.

However, now I prefer not take the interest because I'm still not sure that interest is not riba.


Peace.
[33:72] Verily, We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to bear it and they were afraid of it; but man bear it - verily, he was transgressing, ignorant.

Reee

Salam,
Whether interest is strictly forbidden ot not, we are always responsible for what we do woth our money. So I have most part of my money in a bank that only finances responsible (ecological, social etc.) companies and projects. Some time ago, I decided not to take the interest from that maney but to donate it o that some projects don't have to pay interest or pay less.
I still have a cheque account and a savings account in another bank as it is more practical (more cash machines than the one mentioned above) but try to reduce the money I have there.

Another aspect in disclaming interest is to control your own greed.
الله اكبر من الاديان

fye


Man of Faith

Peace,

Please state your arguments for where the recitation forbids interest. You are allowed to offer services and money can be a service too and the bank has costs too.

That does not mean consuming usury based on that income or charging disproportionate amounts is right though.

Mutual trade is allowed while usury is not.

And many people would not offer loans if they would have to offer it without any sort of gain. It would make the market worse. And sometimes people borrow just for the sake of borrowing and then people could just borrow and not return a thing.

And in the money market we have the value fluctuates causing the lender to actually lose money while lending the receiver money. That is not righteous either to prohibit interest.

While I have never seen a hint at a prohibition of interest in the decree many people issue the decree on their own while God did not issue that decree. Usury is banned, but trade is allowed in any form except when one gets an unfair gain on the transaction.

God bless you
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Jafar

Quote from: NielsJacob on May 20, 2014, 03:53:04 AM
Peace.

I have some money in bank, where I get a small interest rate.


The bank is using my money to loan out, and I get a part of that interest.
But also I pay some fees to have that account. So maybe I don?t really get any at the button

But anyway. Ain?t that wrong no matter what?
Or what do you think?

No wrong in that..

The invention of tokenization of wealth (a.k.a monetization) is the biggest most profound invention in human history.
It really turn the negative side of human characteristic, which is greed, into positive.

Since tokenization of wealth happened, human are stockpiling something which is actually worthless.
Or in short, human has stopped their stockpiling.

This token, although it's worthless, can still provide value when and only when it's being exchanged with something which has a real value, such as human services or goods.

That's the function being performed by the banks, to make this token circulate among human as fast as possible.
As thus human will provide and also get more services and / or goods.

This token can also be obtained through not providing any beneficial services or goods.
Or through exchanging it with harmful goods or harmful services.
Such action are being named as Theft, Bribery, Robbery, Drug Dealings and Money Laundering.

The above actions are bad..

As thus, stockpiling your (actually worthless) token in the banks actually brings better good to the society compared to stockpiling your token in your home OR stockpiling real valuable resources (such as land/property, gold, silver, oil, gas etc..)
Because it will make the token being exchanged faster through faster circulation among the society.

Salam / Peace

fye

Quote from: NielsJacob on May 20, 2014, 03:53:04 AM
Peace.

I have some money in bank, where I get a small interest rate.


The bank is using my money to loan out, and I get a part of that interest.
But also I pay some fees to have that account. So maybe I don?t really get any at the button

But anyway. Ain?t that wrong no matter what?
Or what do you think?
what does ALLAH say about those who do not give up demand for usuary? take notice of war from ALLAH and his messenger... think Robin Hood

fye

on note for getting a large some of money I found that having a lot of money changes the world around you and how you are perceived. it makes it hard to stay humble..i'm going to try to stay poor better chance of entering the garden also it may be differcult to have a written will if your saving up worldly wealth. haram is forbidden but I think you were asking of is it bad or not? I don't think it's forbidden to save money but to collect and deal interest that's the forbidden stuff there.
try to spread you wealth more widely so you have better understanding of where it goes too.

Zulf

Actually, money doesn't corrupt. Rich people are not worse than poor ones, although poor people generally consider themselves holier than rich people, but it's just a bad myth that money is the root of all evil. The root of evil is within us. Money just becomes an instrument for us to show our evil. Without money, we will remain equally rotten inside, but it may express through jealousy, backbiting and other forms of negativity. Money itself is totally neutral, as is a rifle. A rifle call kill you food, or be used for target shooting, or for murder. Don't blame the rifle, and don't blame the money. Money is not dirty,... we are. So instead of trying to stay poor, if you think it is difficult to remain good while having much money, then instead focus on character building. That's all we'll have when we die anyway... our character. Being poor  won't solve anything. Not being able to handle money positively is just an indication of a weak character. Therein lies the challenge in this life. We all need to purify our characters, so that we won't fall pray to temptations. However, we can never blame the temptations. It all starts and ends with us, not with external items or influences.

Peace  O0
If you name me, you negate me.

Man of Faith

Peace brother Zulf,

A rich person has more to give than a poor person, obviously. But there were rich people in the past that managed to be righteous. Take for example David and Solomon, they became mighty kings but managed to stay righteous and keep their wealth. As I have understood they controlled vast empires and they had lots of wealth in money and resources.

So we should not ruin ourselves, ie intentionally making ourselves poor in case God chooses to enrich us. Our fate is determined by God and we cannot, or should not, fight our destiny. Like Darth Vader said (although he was wrong): "It is your destiny!" Instead we should allow the force to flow through our veins and meld with The Master.

But while we have money and resources we have more to spare to contribute to the society and we should not hold on too dearly to that, and that is the lesson in the recitation to the ordinary man Muhammad. And through money is not the only way to contribute but also by using our own bodies and souls, and volunteer to the mission of God.

And "interest" is a human trade invention and God has allowed trade as long as it is not usury. Excessive interest rates are usury, but not the phenomenon itself. It is simply a parameter of the service provided.

God warns us not to create rules and attribute them to The Master as 'The Decree' and so that right is right. As long as people do not suffer usury and oppression due to absent specific rules then it is generally allowed. Usury and oppression are general guidelines just as the rest of the decree however and you should apply brain works too and consider your actions carefully and what kind of impact they will have. Best is to implore The Master about your actions as in the case with David and the two men with sheep that came to him for his judgment. The lesson could also be to investigate a case carefully before delivering a verdict as David immediately opinionated himself in the poor man's favor only by a first-hand testimony and did not really check in more deeply. The truth could have been something else.

If we are to judge between people we have to make sure that we do so fairly and by knowing the depth of the case and that we seek inspiration from God, that is sometimes lacking in atheist judgement, but not necessarily because such people may be blessed in their ignorance.

If you became rich the best thing you could do is investing your money in a business and employ people and pay them fairly, ie a real income and share of the profit and not the lame wages employers pay all too often. It is better than outright charity and will, God willing, bring you more income to employ even more people. Forbidden today I think, but an alternative is to bring in poor people into your household and feed and provide for them and let them work within your household in return for you keeping them safe. It is such as people of the past did as that you can read about in the Bible for example. It is not oppression as long as they are treated righteously. It is better than showing up in the
street giving them money and then just letting them be. The societies do not work like that today sadly enough, it is a colder climate that way, we rely on our lackluster governments and forget those that have it toughest, and many are not hospitable and welcoming to guests.

Remember the narration with Abrahem and when the guests, that were angels/controllers in disguise, came to his house and he prepared a meal for them (even if it was a test to see if they were idolators). Such was a common practice in the past to receive strangers in a very warm welcoming way. And Lot received his guests very respectfully.

We forget what is the true lesson of the texts that we read, ie the Bible or Quran, and that is the stories portraying the behavior of its characters. People are so obsessed with extracting rules out of the scriptures that they forget that it is a quite abstract decree issued in them. People even say Islam is a way of living but seem to forget their own expression when it comes into relation with the recitation they recite. The recitation to the ordinary man X (allegedly Muhammad) is a moral lesson to people as well as some rules open to interpretation, except that their fundamental meaning always needs to be followed. If "salat" would be so essential in our faith to be performed that systematically and exactly five times, or whatever you believe, then the decree to Muhammad would have contained an exact number. Even the months of a year seem to carry more importance. These disputes and even wars over disputes like these will be brought up in the courtroom of God and The Master will judge in whatever evil has been done trying to force their opinions on others. And remember even heated discussions turning into yelling or foul language will carry their certain disadvantages.

God will not doom a believer to Hell for believing in 3, 4 or 5 communions (contact prayers/salat) per day in their confusion as long as they know why they do them.

But sorry the topic of this thread was if money in bank with intest is haram and I outright say no. There is nothing in the decree that forbids such a thing. Usury is forbidden, just as oppression, but God did not forbid mutual trade. The Loan taker is even told to issue a decree over their loan in a juridical environment to make sure things are taking place rightly. They decree something mutually between the lender and borrower. Interest has nothing to do with usury and could be confused with pressing people of additional money if they cannot repay their debts. But issued loans, with interest, in a decree mutually accepted by both parties is an allowed trade.

It is the same as you come to an agreement with a neighbor that you may borrow 5 potatoes and later return 10 and you issue a decree on paper over that (I know the example seems lame but was the first item that came up in my head). During that time since you borrowed the potatoes the neighbor might have had additional potatoes growing in his soil making a loss in resources. Ponder upon that example.

But if you are unable to repay the neighbor's potatoes and your family is in crisis it is righteous of the neighbor to omit your loan, or part of your loan, as a charity, without insult or mockery.

Such is God's decree, fair and sound.

God bless you
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

fye

Quote from: Man of Faith on May 30, 2014, 06:45:12 AM
Peace brother Zulf,

A rich person has more to give than a poor person, obviously. But there were rich people in the past that managed to be righteous. Take for example David and Solomon, they became mighty kings but managed to stay righteous and keep their wealth. As I have understood they controlled vast empires and they had lots of wealth in money and resources.

So we should not ruin ourselves, ie intentionally making ourselves poor in case God chooses to enrich us. Our fate is determined by God and we cannot, or should not, fight our destiny. Like Darth Vader said (although he was wrong): "It is your destiny!" Instead we should allow the force to flow through our veins and meld with The Master.

But while we have money and resources we have more to spare to contribute to the society and we should not hold on too dearly to that, and that is the lesson in the recitation to the ordinary man Muhammad. And through money is not the only way to contribute but also by using our own bodies and souls, and volunteer to the mission of God.

And "interest" is a human trade invention and God has allowed trade as long as it is not usury. Excessive interest rates are usury, but not the phenomenon itself. It is simply a parameter of the service provided.

God warns us not to create rules and attribute them to The Master as 'The Decree' and so that right is right. As long as people do not suffer usury and oppression due to absent specific rules then it is generally allowed. Usury and oppression are general guidelines just as the rest of the decree however and you should apply brain works too and consider your actions carefully and what kind of impact they will have. Best is to implore The Master about your actions as in the case with David and the two men with sheep that came to him for his judgment. The lesson could also be to investigate a case carefully before delivering a verdict as David immediately opinionated himself in the poor man's favor only by a first-hand testimony and did not really check in more deeply. The truth could have been something else.

If we are to judge between people we have to make sure that we do so fairly and by knowing the depth of the case and that we seek inspiration from God, that is sometimes lacking in atheist judgement, but not necessarily because such people may be blessed in their ignorance.

If you became rich the best thing you could do is investing your money in a business and employ people and pay them fairly, ie a real income and share of the profit and not the lame wages employers pay all too often. It is better than outright charity and will, God willing, bring you more income to employ even more people. Forbidden today I think, but an alternative is to bring in poor people into your household and feed and provide for them and let them work within your household in return for you keeping them safe. It is such as people of the past did as that you can read about in the Bible for example. It is not oppression as long as they are treated righteously. It is better than showing up in the
street giving them money and then just letting them be. The societies do not work like that today sadly enough, it is a colder climate that way, we rely on our lackluster governments and forget those that have it toughest, and many are not hospitable and welcoming to guests.

Remember the narration with Abrahem and when the guests, that were angels/controllers in disguise, came to his house and he prepared a meal for them (even if it was a test to see if they were idolators). Such was a common practice in the past to receive strangers in a very warm welcoming way. And Lot received his guests very respectfully.

We forget what is the true lesson of the texts that we read, ie the Bible or Quran, and that is the stories portraying the behavior of its characters. People are so obsessed with extracting rules out of the scriptures that they forget that it is a quite abstract decree issued in them. People even say Islam is a way of living but seem to forget their own expression when it comes into relation with the recitation they recite. The recitation to the ordinary man X (allegedly Muhammad) is a moral lesson to people as well as some rules open to interpretation, except that their fundamental meaning always needs to be followed. If "salat" would be so essential in our faith to be performed that systematically and exactly five times, or whatever you believe, then the decree to Muhammad would have contained an exact number. Even the months of a year seem to carry more importance. These disputes and even wars over disputes like these will be brought up in the courtroom of God and The Master will judge in whatever evil has been done trying to force their opinions on others. And remember even heated discussions turning into yelling or foul language will carry their certain disadvantages.

God will not doom a believer to Hell for believing in 3, 4 or 5 communions (contact prayers/salat) per day in their confusion as long as they know why they do them.

But sorry the topic of this thread was if money in bank with intest is haram and I outright say no. There is nothing in the decree that forbids such a thing. Usury is forbidden, just as oppression, but God did not forbid mutual trade. The Loan taker is even told to issue a decree over their loan in a juridical environment to make sure things are taking place rightly. They decree something mutually between the lender and borrower. Interest has nothing to do with usury and could be confused with pressing people of additional money if they cannot repay their debts. But issued loans, with interest, in a decree mutually accepted by both parties is an allowed trade.

It is the same as you come to an agreement with a neighbor that you may borrow 5 potatoes and later return 10 and you issue a decree on paper over that (I know the example seems lame but was the first item that came up in my head). During that time since you borrowed the potatoes the neighbor might have had additional potatoes growing in his soil making a loss in resources. Ponder upon that example.

But if you are unable to repay the neighbor's potatoes and your family is in crisis it is righteous of the neighbor to omit your loan, or part of your loan, as a charity, without insult or mockery.

Such is God's decree, fair and sound.

God bless you

have you read the biblical account of Solomon wealth surely has it's trails, also the parable of a rich man in the bible that is spoken of in the quran. I don't have a bank account but can you give any advice on the best way to keep a balance?

Man of Faith

Quote from: fye on May 30, 2014, 03:31:30 PM
have you read the biblical account of Solomon wealth surely has it's trails, also the parable of a rich man in the bible that is spoken of in the quran. I don't have a bank account but can you give any advice on the best way to keep a balance?


Peace,,

I am terribly sorry, o brother, but I could not understand your question. Keep a balance how? Do you mean to know what is the excess of your possessions on a bank account?

God bless you
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Jafar

Quote from: fye on May 30, 2014, 03:31:30 PM
have you read the biblical account of Solomon wealth surely has it's trails, also the parable of a rich man in the bible that is spoken of in the quran. I don't have a bank account but can you give any advice on the best way to keep a balance?

The parable of "rich man" in the bible and in the Quran (Karoon) has the same characteristic.
HE'S A STOCKPILER AND A GLOAT
He kept valuable resources for himself and he earned it through misfortune of others.

That's the definition of "Riba", taking advantage of another people's misfortune.

There's million of ways to take advantage of another people's misfortune.
Thus in terms of a loan or credit it's dependent on the loan / credit's terms and condition WHEN the debtor cannot pay his/her debt due to some misfortune. And it's not related to 'interest'.

For example, the loan/credit has no interest yet the loan or credit can be a "riba" if the T&C mandated the debtor to:
- Become slave to the creditor.
- Surrendered his family member as a slave to the creditor.

And it can also be, the debtor fled hiding to another country with his/her wealth earned through credit to avoid repaying his/her obligation to the creditor. The Debtor in this case earn his wealth through misfortune of the creditor and he's the one who caused such misfortune.

Arman

Indeed I have faced my face to the One who farmed the heavens and the earth in precision; and I do not happen to be among the ones associating partners (with Him).