Regarding Article "Meaning of SuJuD" part 1

[Mazhar]

peace all,

Looking forward to a response to these:

#####

Salam,

It is our everyday experience that some visuals instantly effect us; pleasingly or disturbingly. Many people start weeping feeling melancholic on watching a scene-tragedy in a movie. Horror movies terrify. A critical and careful reading of marvelously worded passages of grand Qur'aan creates similar imagery and effect on the reader:


The skins of them: who persistently fear and revere their Sustainer Lord, become bristled in fear by some segment of it: Grand Qur'aan. Afterwards, their skins become softened.



Chins are parrallel to Stem Brain: it is the "Pilot" of the body and the man in it upon threat stimuli. It can give three responses, flee, fight, surrender in absolute humility-paralysis response.

Such scenes happen when reading horrifying imaging stories and consequences

[Timur]

Peace ths,

It does clarify that. You've just ignored it because you are forcing your own interpretation onto the verses. The meaning of being on the ground is absolutely clear in these verses,

So it is absolutely clear to you in 32:15 as well, I suppose? Please tell me, do you prostrate physically with your head on the ground whenever your are reminded by the signs/ verses of our Lord? If no, why not?

1. Like swimming, running, and other Arabic words, the accepted definition of Sujood to pre-Islamic Arabs is prostration. We have examples of pre-Islamic poetry that clearly shows us they thought Sujood = prostration. From the Encyclopaedia of the Quran, Vol. 4 Page 219:

Sujūd was known among the peoples of the Middle East in pre-Islamic times as a gesture of respect at royal courts and as an act of adoration in Christian worship. Pre-Islamic poetry cites a few examples of prostration (sujūd) before a tribal chief in recognition of his superiority and as an expression of one’s submission (cf. Tottoli, Muslim attitudes, 5-34).
The act of prostration hurt the pride (q.v.) of the Arabs (Q 25:60; 7:206; cf. 16:49; 32:15; 68:42-3) because it appeared to them as a humiliating gesture and an alien practice (cf. Kister, Some reports, 3-6).

Can you please quote the poems the Encyclopedia refers to directly? And can verify those poems are indeed pre-quranic?

In turn, please explain verses such as 19:58

إِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُ الرَّحْمَن خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَبُكِيًّا

You are arguing that sujjadan is a metaphor, or a non-literal meaning of the accepted word, whereas bakiyyan (crying) is literally physical crying.

I don't think Wakas argues that SJD has to be taken as a metaphor. I think he argues that the basic meaning of SJD simply is obedience/ submission/ paying respect etc. Obviously this field of meanings can be expressed by physical gestures including physical prostration to the ground but once again: this is not the basic meaning. Hence nothing is wrong with prostrating physically but there is nothing wrong with expressing your obedience/ submission in a different way either!

[Mazhar]

Quote
In turn, please explain verses such as 19:58

إِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُ الرَّحْمَن خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَبُكِيًّا

You are arguing that sujjadan is a metaphor, or a non-literal meaning of the accepted word, whereas bakiyyan (crying) is literally physical crying.
I don't think Wakas argues that SJD has to be taken as a metaphor. I think he argues that the basic meaning of SJD simply is obedience/ submission/ paying respect etc. Obviously this field of meanings can be expressed by physical gestures including physical prostration to the ground but once again: this is not the basic meaning. Hence nothing is wrong with prostrating physically but there is nothing wrong with expressing your obedience/ submission in a different way either!

The ambiguity in this perception is because of overlooking the relationship of words in the sentence. Actions are and can be done in a particular state-circumstance by the subject. The subject of the verb [waw] refers to plural number of doers. The circumstantial clause-the state of the doers is reflected by two plural active participles and their role as such is reflected by their accusative case.

Perceptions will be erroneous if only root meanings are kept in mind without knowing the structure of the sentence; parsing of sentences must precede arriving at conclusions. This is the basic manner of study and translation to empty semantic information therefrom.

[ths]

Salaam Timur,

So it is absolutely clear to you in 32:15 as well, I suppose?

It is clearest in 17:107. But yes, generally when KHRR is paired with SJD I interpret it as a physical prostration. Why do you propose KHRR is used? To express humility? There are half a dozen words used in the Quran to express that, and KHRR isn't used in that way anywhere else.

Please tell me, do you prostrate physically with your head on the ground whenever your are reminded by the signs/ verses of our Lord? If no, why not?

Do you say "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled." every time you hear the Quran as in 17:108 ?
Do you cry each time you hear the Quran as in 17:109?
If you don't cry each time you hear the Quran, should we reinterpret "crying"? Perhaps bukaa2 isn't crying at all!
I think we need to reinterpret BKY according to the Quran because God never clarifies whether BKY is with tears or not! It could mean "feeling something" - and indeed "feeling something" fits best in all the verses!

Also, do you sleep as soon as the sun sets each day until the sun rises according to 10:67 ? After all, God says the night is for us to sleep in and the day to be awake.

Or perhaps these parables aren't meant to be taken absolutely literally and some semblance of common sense is in order

[Habibullah]

ths

Your posts in this thread are very much appreciated
May God bless you with more knowledge
Peace.

[ths]

Thank you for the kind words Habibullah
May God bless us all with more knowledge and show us our holy rites!

Peace

[Timur]

Peace Ths,

It is clearest in 17:107. But yes, generally when KHRR is paired with SJD I interpret it as a physical prostration. Why do you propose KHRR is used? To express humility? There are half a dozen words used in the Quran to express that, and KHRR isn't used in that way anywhere else.

I think KHRR is used in the same way as "to fall" is used in the English expression "to fall in love". In German we have a word from the same root: "verfallen". You can use this verb along with any emotional state like hatred, passion and so on. In my view this construction is very logical and probably used in many languages in some way. In the Arabic reading/ "quran" we find it very clearly in 25:73 (to fall in a state of deafness and blindness) which has already been discussed here. To make it short: KHRR SJD = to fall in a state of obedience/ submission/ humility.

Do you say "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled." every time you hear the Quran as in 17:108 ?
Do you cry each time you hear the Quran as in 17:109?

This is something different because a specific historical context is given. It is about a people to whom the knowledge was given already before the reading/ quran. Hence there is no reason to blindly imitate those people in every detail of their reaction.

On the contrary 32:15 is very general and demands SJD from every believer whenever he is reminded by the god's signs/ verses. Only those who SJD in such situations are believers. You see how strong the wording in 32:15 is?

Also, do you sleep as soon as the sun sets each day until the sun rises according to 10:67 ? After all, God says the night is for us to sleep in and the day to be awake.

Please tell me which word in 10:67 means "to sleep" and which one means "to be awake"? Actually the reading/ "quran" encourages study at night (73:6). On top of this 10:67 does not state somebody is no believer if he does not SKN at night.

[ths]

Salaam Timur,

Are we really going to have this debate?

First of all - if you do not think SJD is prostration - then what do you do every time you hear the Quran? What is this feeling or abstract concept that you do each time the Quran is recited to you? Reading Free-Minds must be really distressing for you if you stop and make SJD each and every time you read a Quran verse.

Secondly - the same verse 32:15 says that the believers make tasbih every time they are reminded of the Quran. Do you make tasbih each and every time? If not, why not? Are you making tasbih and SJD right now? Because you are being reminded of God's verses as we speak

Please explain to me how you do SJD and Tasbih each and every time you hear the Quran.

The verse then continues -

Their sides shun their couches as they call on their Lord in fear and hope; and they expend of that We have provided them

22:35 and 8:2 state that the humble are those whose "hearts shake" whenever God is mentioned. Does your heart literally shake whenever God is mentioned? 8:2 also states that when they hear God's verses recited, the mu'mins increase in faith. Does this mean they literally increase in faith each time they hear God's verses?


So now we have a list of things that true believers do whenever they hear the Quran -

They make SJD
They make tasbih
They forsake their beds/couches
They call on their Lord in fear and hope
They expend of their wealth
Their hearts shake
Their faith increases

I mean really, where do you draw the line between an absolute literal reading of the Quran and a figurative one?

When God tells Muhammad to proclaim the Hajj in 22:27, it says: "and they shall come unto thee on foot and upon every lean beast, they shall come from every deep ravine"

It literally says "kulli daamirin" (every beast) and "kulli fajjin" (every ravine). Does this mean that literally every camel and horse in the world are going to be used for people to make pilgrimage?


The true purpose of 17:107-109 is to contrast the deep obedience and humility of the believers to those in 25:73 who fall as if deaf and blind. If you want it to be literal then please explain who these people were who literally fell down to the ground in SJD and cried every single time they heard the Quran recited to them. And then explain precisely how you perform SJD and Tasbih every single time you hear the Quran recited to you

[Timur]

Peace Ths,

First of all - if you do not think SJD is prostration - then what do you do every time you hear the Quran? What is this feeling or abstract concept that you do each time the Quran is recited to you? Reading Free-Minds must be really distressing for you if you stop and make SJD each and every time you read a Quran verse.

Not at all. As I already explained SJD means obeying/ submitting/ acknowledging. Whenever I read the Quran or listen to it, I try to internalise its message (obey, submit, acknowledge) and not to be heedless of it (deaf and blind).

Secondly - the same verse 32:15 says that the believers make tasbih every time they are reminded of the Quran. Do you make tasbih each and every time? If not, why not? Are you making tasbih and SJD right now? Because you are being reminded of God's verses as we speak

Doesn't one already glorify the lord by being obedient and thankful? I think this is the case. Besides this part of the sentence isn't necessarily linked to the condition of being remembered by the god's signs.

The verse then continues -

Their sides shun their couches as they call on their Lord in fear and hope; and they expend of that We have provided them

This a new sentence describing other attributes of the believers. I is not linked to the condition of being remembered by the god's signs.

22:35 and 8:2 state that the humble are those whose "hearts shake" whenever God is mentioned. Does your heart literally shake whenever God is mentioned?

This is clearly metaphorical. And in the sense of a metaphor I'd say yes.

8:2 also states that when they hear God's verses recited, the mu'mins increase in faith. Does this mean they literally increase in faith each time they hear God's verses?

Would this be irrational? What is your interpretation?

I mean really, where do you draw the line between an absolute literal reading of the Quran and a figurative one?

Good question. So where do you draw the line? You choose SJD to be physical in one case and to be non-physical in the other, but according to what criteria?

The true purpose of 17:107-109 is to contrast the deep obedience and humility of the believers to those in 25:73 who fall as if deaf and blind.

Agreed!

So what is your reason to take SJD as something physical in the context of al-salat? I think it might be helpful to understand your reasoning.

[Little Mannie]

I personally have a problem with the physical "salat" because it reminds me too much of the instruments of corrupt states.  The example that comes to mind is the dang pledge of allegiance I had to make every single day in school growing up.  I absolutely hated it! I thought it was an utter waste of time, and even today, the words lose their meaning if I have to robotically repeat the same thing over and over.

  Make no mistake, I am very American and I have developed a certain sense of inner solidarity for anybody who takes seriously the cause of liberty.  But it had absolutely nothing to do with saluting a piece of fabric!  i care more about civil liberties now than i did when i was a mindless drone making half-assed prayers "to the flag..."

What the government does (and has done) in this country, is just ridiculous.  This annoying pledge of allegiance is just the tip of the iceberg, and i really believe that this form of indoctrination is being used to dehumanize, degrade, and desensitize people to what liberty actually is, and to isolate those who really do care about liberty from those who just care about "one nation, indivisible".

To me the subject could also be compared to the infamous scandals in this country regarding the use of torture to obtain intelligence.  It is just as absurd, ineffective, and dehumanizing.

Sorry for the rant