Author Topic: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1  (Read 4215 times)

Jafar

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 10:10:57 PM »
   I accept the fact that majority of the sahih hadiths are corrupted especially  Abu Huraira,Bukhari  and Muslim.But let me clarify why i believe good hadiths should be filtered.

It's the FILTER that's important, you must filter everything not only the Hadiths.

And it's the individual / human conscience FILTER that the Mullah is trying to overcome.
That's why they invented DOGMA.
Where DOGMA = Something which MUST be accepted (read: something which must not be filtered)

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2.Anyone who tries to interprete Quran goes into a dilemma,that he /she tries to interprete according to his/her need.Its not their fault,rather its a subconcious defense for survival.

Correct including the Mullahs, Imams and those who invented all of those conception we found in the book called Rumour a.k.a Hadith

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3.A society without a history of itself is  vulnerable as memories are the primary source of self defence.Islamic history could be digged mainly from hadiths.

The Religion of Islam history can be digged out from Hadith, although it should not be interpreted as 'face value'.

For example, in the Hadith one can find something like:
- Christians, Jews will go to hell, interpreted as "There's an inter-religion conflict, and hatred among them is abundant in the society during the time of Hadith".
- Muhammad saying the first requirement to join the Religion of Islam is by saying the Shahada.
  Interpreted as "The conception of Shahada was invented during the time of Hadith, and it's invented to differentiate between member of Islam with non-member of Islam", this shows how SECTARIAN / DIVIDED the society was during that time.

The Hadith is an amazing source to dig out:
- HOW MIDEASTERN PEOPLE THINK DURING 8th-10th CENTURY
but NOT as:
- THE SOURCE FOR THE TRUTH ALL TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH

The 'problem' of SECTARIANISM is not on the "Hadith" per se, but it's more on the MINDSET itself.

Truth is not recognized because "Somebody/something said is true", this is a fallacy known as: ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM

A says P about S.
A should be trusted about S.
Therefore, P is correct.

Salam / Peace

Zulf

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2014, 07:28:58 AM »
The 'problem' of SECTARIANISM is not on the "Hadith" per se, but it's more on the MINDSET itself.

Exactly. It is not only atheist scientists that have zoomed in too much.. and lost the bigger picture. The same thing has happened to religious people. This has nothing to do with science or religion. Science and religion are just hobbies/expressions. Sectarianism is one style of fear and peacelessness expressed. Hadith is not creating sectarianism. WE are creating sectarianism by accepting dogmas that divide us. We USE hadith, science, etc to feed sectarianism due to our inner FEAR and disconnection from Reality and Peace. Sectarianism is found in religion, but not only there. It is found everywhere in society!

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Also, I wonder why people are concerned about filtering out good hadith from bad hadith.
Is there an underlying assumption that we are bound to follow the good hadith as divine instruction if we find it??
If we are on a hunt for for good hadith, aren't we supposed to hunt for hadith outside Islam as well, whether it is in non-religious sources or sources of other religions? Or are we assuming that hadith is divine, but polluted?
Exactly what are our assumptions about hadith when we talk about discerning "good" hadith from "bad"? Let's be very clear about our own assumption.

Peace folks
If you name me, you negate me.

SarahY

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 09:03:00 AM »
Salam,

Zulf, I think the idea about filtering hadiths of traditional sources is to keep a bond with current traditionalists or even awaken their beliefs. Many people who followed tradition in the past may still have associations with it. Also some orally told stories have had some positive impacts to people.

Aslam, you might find this an interesting read http://www.scribd.com/doc/119660399/dialogues-of-hadith-different-perceptions-and-insights.

I think the process of sifting through hadiths and filtering them is a complex task. Why I think that is, is totally dependent on your criteria that justifies the nullification of a hadith, what would be the filter to "please" the majority.

Salam.

We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

Zulf

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2014, 02:00:06 PM »
Salam,

Zulf, I think the idea about filtering hadiths of traditional sources is to keep a bond with current traditionalists or even awaken their beliefs. Many people who followed tradition in the past may still have associations with it. Also some orally told stories have had some positive impacts to people.

Aslam, you might find this an interesting read http://www.scribd.com/doc/119660399/dialogues-of-hadith-different-perceptions-and-insights.

I think the process of sifting through hadiths and filtering them is a complex task. Why I think that is, is totally dependent on your criteria that justifies the nullification of a hadith, what would be the filter to "please" the majority.

Salam.

Salam SarahY,
thanks for your response.
Perhaps I'm not addressing your points directly, but anyhow...  :)

No doubt, many stories in hadith are wonderful stories of wisdom and good morals, or so I assume.
But I think we need to be very clear about what we wish to achieve when filtering the corpus of hadith.
Telling a ridiculous hadith from a sensible one only takes common sense. What is it we want to extract from the hadith? Do we want to extract general wise advice in how to live life, or do we want dogmatic rules which cannot be falsifiable and that are useless anyway? Something like "fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me" would be a general and useful thing to learn from, but when we are told that historical character XYZ said that you must eat bananas standing on one leg... for no other reason than that XYZ was God's chosen messenger on Earth... then that's something totally different. So, what is the filtering supposed to achieve? Are we supposed to find out which stories about XYZ are true and which are false, despite none of them are falsifiable and they're all useless. So we just want to separate good dogma from bad dogma?

I mean, if something is useful for us in life, we'd not need any special method of filtering it out. We'd just simply recognize it as sensible. The whole point is that we are not supposed to uphold things we cannot verify. What's the point of filtering hadith in the first place? Isn't this filtering just a way to organize hadith in two different groups... but in the end it is all still just hadith.

Peace
If you name me, you negate me.

SarahY

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2014, 04:55:15 AM »
Salam,

You're welcome and you're comments are fine.

I believe it is totally individual for what purpose one filters hadith. There can be numerous reasons. Excluding the odd, illogical hadiths, I tend to think some people rebel against hadith purely because of traditionalists inclination towards them.

Sure, picking a ridiculous hadith from a sensible one might be as simple as common sense, however not always. Also is the emphasis purely on the content? what about the historic evidence or historical proof that it was actually said or that those 2 narrators met. The corpus of hadith is a lot more complex but certainly I believe content should be scrutinised, especially for those who wish to keep their link with muslim history. 

Also a lot of hadith isn't dogma, a lot of it isn't rulings to follow or sunnah but I guess it's easy to think like that with scholars/sheikhs always throwing rulings down our throats.

I genuinely think if hadiths with prescribed acts were further filtered in line with Quranic rulings, it may make others think hold on a min.. isn't it authentic why is it filtered further? or at least more muslims would be following Quran, so that people would celebrate their similarities more than their differences. Though I know it's not everyone's cup of tea...

All writings are a form of hadith and we don't always verify everything we accept/believe.. but we can try.

Historical evidence and be ambiguous but we've all learnt something from it.

Peace.
We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

Firedragon

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 12:47:33 AM »
Why should any sanity allow us to find GOOD HADITH when we have the BEST HADITH.

Quran 39:23

Zulf

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2014, 10:42:23 AM »
Yes
If you name me, you negate me.

fye

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2014, 10:06:48 AM »
dude the quran is so awesome and it's the word of ALLAH will you not rational want to hear what your god says to you?
seriously ALLAH send down the quran before the hadiths, so by that my question is does that make the hadith a innovation? a get quick knowledge scheme?

quran is From ALLAH which one of his blessings will you deny

Man of Faith

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2014, 11:44:11 AM »
Peace,

In fact the Message is so simple it barely even needs a Book (Quran), but it is a good reminder.

God bless you
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Earthdom

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Re: Possibility of filtering good hadiths part1
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2014, 08:02:40 AM »
I believe Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed.
But it's not wrong we understand it with another tools, since Quran's language is special in format.

Peace