Author Topic: Alcohol/intoxicants.  (Read 22797 times)

muslims

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #140 on: January 26, 2014, 04:36:55 PM »
I do not agree...

I make the conclusion from your own statement . . not my statement

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346865#msg346865


So . .why you are now disagreeing with your own statement ?  :confused:


Muslim Atheism is a theological position for the disbelief in god, religion and the unspecific
but the practical philosophy from the Quran are followed

The_Chimp

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #141 on: January 26, 2014, 04:43:46 PM »
the chimp...

you are splitting hair to be right...

you enjoy being right...

I do not...

bye...

Incorrect. This is about the Quran - I always take the matter seriously; that is not say - one can be appropriately humorous. However - there is no "splitting hair" here.

As the saying goes - "either put up or shut up".

The_Chimp

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #142 on: January 26, 2014, 04:45:57 PM »
I made my stand very clear: I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan...

and to clarify, in case you did not know ;)

alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...

"Advised" or "commanded"? There is clear difference between the two.

And this:

Quote
I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan

is completely unjustified if one takes the actual verse 5:90-91 into account.

The_Chimp

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #143 on: January 26, 2014, 04:47:11 PM »
no need, I do not agree...

I believe in the Quran, and my understanding is that Alcohol consumption is not haram...

That is fine. If you can satisfy your own heart. Some of us disagree with your position. That is all.

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #144 on: January 26, 2014, 05:04:41 PM »
That is fine. If you can satisfy your own heart. Some of us disagree with your position. That is all.

thank you...

I am very convinced the moderate consumption of alcohol is not haram...

and that the excessive consumption of alcohol can lead someone to abomination and haram, and therefore is not advisable...

there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...

the commandment is not to follow Satan's lures and machinations...

this is what I will answer someone who asks me for advice about this matter... which is the same advice I give myself...

as an exhibit, there is a commandment not to pray while being drunk, with alcohol or any other mind altering drugs, as sukara means inebriated, and you can also get inebriated with opium, heroin, marijuana, etc.

by the way I also agree with the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes, now go ahead and criticise me, LOL! ;)
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #145 on: January 26, 2014, 05:06:34 PM »
I make the conclusion from your own statement . . not my statement

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346865#msg346865


So . .why you are now disagreeing with your own statement ?  :confused:

what are you on about?

sorry, I have answered all that I can...
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

muslims

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #146 on: January 26, 2014, 05:15:33 PM »
sorry, I have answered all that I can...

Your answer is merely a blank denial . . ie. "I do not agree..."

Therefore . . why you are disagreeing with your own statement  ?

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346865#msg346865



there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...

and . . Allah says 

              O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and games of chance are foul tools used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful. [5:90]

              Shall - mandatory

              Avoidavoid transitive verb \ə-ˈvȯid\

                       : to stay away from (someone or something)               . . . fermented intoxicating substance (Khamr)

                       : to prevent the occurrence of (something bad, unpleasant, etc.)               . . . fermented intoxicating substance (Khamr)

                       : to keep yourself from doing (something) or participating in (something)               . . . fermented intoxicating substance (Khamr)

              successful - Islam . . being a Muslim vs. the devil

Therefore . .

Therefore, what you are saying is . . .

Conclusion . .

"Do not even approach" (ie. avoid) the making/produce/deliver of "Khamr" and being intoxicated by "Khamr"

ie. the tools  used by the devil

Muslim Atheism is a theological position for the disbelief in god, religion and the unspecific
but the practical philosophy from the Quran are followed

Abdul-Hadi

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #147 on: January 26, 2014, 05:19:12 PM »
Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

peace Abdul-Hadi

sorry but khamr translates as fermented substance, not intoxicant...

Although many translations may state "fermented substance," a more literal definition is "that which conceals/covers" with the root word pertaining to cover/conceal. This is demonstrated in 24:31 by use of the word bikhumurihinna.

24:31 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal [bikhumurihinna] their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to GOD, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

To be sure, intoxicant will include more substances than only brewed substances that contain alcohol. To me, it makes sense that Satan can use intoxicants as a tool--not only brewed substances containing alcohol. Don't you think that heroin [for example] is probably worse for a believer than alcohol?

Given free choice, I'm all for any and all drugs being legal. It sure doesn't mean that I'd choose to take them, though!

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi



The_Chimp

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #148 on: January 26, 2014, 05:45:08 PM »
thank you...

I am very convinced the moderate consumption of alcohol is not haram...

and that the excessive consumption of alcohol can lead someone to abomination and haram, and therefore is not advisable...

there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...

the commandment is not to follow Satan's lures and machinations...

this is what I will answer someone who asks me for advice about this matter... which is the same advice I give myself...

as an exhibit, there is a commandment not to pray while being drunk, with alcohol or any other mind altering drugs, as sukara means inebriated, and you can also get inebriated with opium, heroin, marijuana, etc.

by the way I also agree with the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes, now go ahead and criticise me, LOL! ;)

Quote
there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...

And this is the disagreement.

Verse 5:90 does forbid Alcohol.

Quote
the commandment is not to follow Satan's lures and machinations

Yes. And those "lures and machinations" [Rijs] are . . . gambling, intoxicant, arrows, etc. Hence - Alcohol is forbidden.

"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah ], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it [the defilement] that you may be successful."

Firedragon

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #149 on: January 27, 2014, 12:44:15 AM »
Do not approach prayer while intoxicated says the Quran. If alcohol is prohibited, like pigs meat, the Quran would not say this quote. As a prohibition that's a sin to consume at all, are only four things as explicitly stated in the Quran.

Peace.