Author Topic: Alcohol/intoxicants.  (Read 22793 times)

The_Chimp

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #130 on: January 26, 2014, 03:50:18 PM »
how can a substance be intoxicated? learn english please...

Now you are really getting worse. . . more trivial. Flinging another baseless accusation. Where in this quote is "substance" mentioned?

Sweetheart - you are answering to the wrong person . . .


Quote
Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.

"They ask you about "Khamr"..."

This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.



Tut! Tut!

muslims

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #131 on: January 26, 2014, 03:50:27 PM »
It is not clear what you are referring to. khamar cannot be translated as "Substance" - dictionary says no.

I'm identifying the prohibition . . and according to what he agrees .

So . we let him decide, according to whatever he wishes . . and see whether his reasoning sounds logical or ridiculous . .

Muslim Atheism is a theological position for the disbelief in god, religion and the unspecific
but the practical philosophy from the Quran are followed

The_Chimp

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #132 on: January 26, 2014, 03:52:08 PM »
peace Abdul-Hadi

sorry but khamr translates as fermented substance, not intoxicant...

"Intoxicant - An agent that intoxicates, especially an alcoholic beverage"

 :brickwall:


theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #133 on: January 26, 2014, 03:52:40 PM »
So . . when does being intoxication starts ? ie. . .

During the initial consumption. . ie. the cause . . ?

or at the end . . ie. the consequences, being heavily drunk and cannot control himself . . ?

*

and secondly . .

What does the prohibition (avoid) is related to ?

Whether it is . . .

        1. Avoid the substance of Khamr ?
        2. Avoid the making of Khamr ?
        3. Avoid of being intoxicated by Khamr ?

1? 2? or 3? or else ?

salam

this is getting boring, and I do admit, I am not a very patient man...

why are you so fixated about the word intoxicant, it is not being used...

the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...

fermented substances are not bad...

their use can be bad...

becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...

also being drunk can make someone lose control, which is a tool Satan can use to make someone do bad things...

read the Quran using your brain and deductive capacity of reasoning, not invented reasons and objections based on emotions...

avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...

the use with the intention of losing control, and getting drunk in the case of alcohol, and mind altering drugs in general...

but even then, there are special cases

losing control is not always bad, like using chemical substances to induce a coma, or anesthetics in medicine... or control of pain, psychiatric drugs... etc.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

The_Chimp

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #134 on: January 26, 2014, 04:03:29 PM »
Quote
why are you so fixated about the word intoxicant, it is not being used...

the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...

In this case - Khamer does mean Intoxicant.

- -

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becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...


And to avoid it all together.

- -

Quote
read the Quran using your brain and deductive capacity of reasoning, not invented reasons and objections based on emotions...

Such sentences are pretty useless. Are you that incapable of making your points? Shouldn't it be your reasoning that stands up by itself.

- -

Quote
avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...

How? Please explain this . . . how? Evidence?

- -

Quote
but even then, there are special cases

losing control is not always bad, like using chemical substances to induce a coma, or anesthetics in medicine... or control of pain, psychiatric drugs... etc.

Faulty logic.

Analogy:

In UK, speed limit in built up areas is 30mph. However, under real emergency [such as rushing to hospital] you can break this law. However - using this "special case" to claim that you are generally allowed to drive over 30mph is simply illogical. If you tried that [argument] in court - it will be rejected. 

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #135 on: January 26, 2014, 04:05:32 PM »
the chimp...

you are splitting hair to be right...

you enjoy being right...

I do not...

bye...
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

muslims

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #136 on: January 26, 2014, 04:14:37 PM »

Sorry . . I need to understand your standing and that's why I'm asking you questions . .

You said the interpretation of Khamr is . .

something fermented means khamr, sour milk is fermented milk...

Therefore . . it is not substance, right ?

The words Khamr refers to "something fermented", right ?

ie. . . the act of making something . . produce or delivering something . .relating to "Khamr"

Therefore . .

Quote
        1. Avoid the substance of "Khamr" ?
        2. Avoid the making of "Khamr" ?
        3. Avoid of being intoxicated by "Khamr" ?

Right ? Do you agree on this ?

*

But you also said . .

the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...

You said it means a "fermented substance"

and you said . .

fermented substances are not bad...

their use can be bad...

becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...

also being drunk can make someone lose control, which is a tool Satan can use to make someone do bad things...

and therefore . .

Quote
        1. Avoid the substance of "Khamr" ?
        2. Avoid the making of "Khamr" ?
        3. Avoid of being intoxicated by "Khamr" ?

Right ? Do you agree on this ?

*

and Allah says . . "avoid" . . . meaning,  do not even approach of being in that situation

Therefore, what you are saying is . . .

Quote
        2. Avoid the making of "Khamr" ?
        3. Avoid of being intoxicated by "Khamr" ?

Conclusion . .

"Do not even approach" the making/produce/deliver of "Khamr" and being intoxicated by "Khamr"

Do you agree on this ?

*

One could never know when he is 0.1% intoxicated . . but it is still intoxication.

You said . .

and where did you get that ridiculous figure of 0.1%?

and the following has no answer . .

My question . . .

So . . when does being intoxication starts ? ie. . .

During the initial consumption. . ie. the cause . . ?

the middle . . or at the end . . ie. the effect/consequences, being heavily drunk and cannot control himself . . ?

The following does not answer the above question . . ie. when does it starts ?

avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...

the issue . . .

The "substance" is not prohibited, but being "intoxicated" is forbidden . . even 0.1% intoxication.

It is still . . intoxication.

Similarly, holding a knife is not prohibited . . but stabbing a person with a knife, is prohibited . . even if it only a scratch to the skin.

It is still . . assault.


Muslim Atheism is a theological position for the disbelief in god, religion and the unspecific
but the practical philosophy from the Quran are followed

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #137 on: January 26, 2014, 04:30:00 PM »
Sorry . . I need to understand your standing and that's why I'm asking you questions . .

My question . . .

The following does not answer the above question . . ie. when does it starts ?

I made my stand very clear: I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan...

and to clarify, in case you did not know ;)

alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

muslims

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #138 on: January 26, 2014, 04:31:47 PM »
I made my stand very clear: I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall pray to the machinations of Satan...

and to clarify, in case you did not know ;)

alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...


It doesn't matter what you did . . the issue is not about you . .

but about what is your conclusion after reading the Quran . .

Therefore, please answer  the following . .

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346865;topicseen#msg346865

I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol...

Allah says "avoid" . . meaning don't even come close or don't even approach of being in that situation

Muslim Atheism is a theological position for the disbelief in god, religion and the unspecific
but the practical philosophy from the Quran are followed

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #139 on: January 26, 2014, 04:34:16 PM »
no need, I do not agree...

I believe in the Quran, and my understanding is that Alcohol consumption is not haram...
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.