Author Topic: Alcohol/intoxicants.  (Read 22790 times)

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #120 on: January 26, 2014, 03:18:36 PM »
Just thought of something.. call it speculation or whatever...

I guess we can see this phrasing "la taqrabu".. "don't come near"... as both telling us not to get covered/drunk by the khamr, that is, not to use/drink/smoke the substance... but not only that, but also not to come NEAR it. Possibly, at least in my imagination, it could be indicating that we should not come near such situation that promote one to get drunk. This could be the company of people that likely will insist you drink and similar environments that not only may tempt you, but also make it easy to fall for the temptation. It makes sense, and it would be wise to avoid such situations, regardless of what the quran says. We are also told not to sit among people who back stab and talk scrap and nonsense, until they change topic. Same thing there. We could sit quiet, but it is better to not be there at all (for several reasons).

Peace

there is no such a phrase as lataqrabu alkhamr...

there is lataqrabu alzinah...
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

muslims

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #121 on: January 26, 2014, 03:19:57 PM »
Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.

"They ask you about "Khamr"..."

This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.


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If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance

Is this interpretation valid ?

Is it logical to understand it as a "substance"?


Therefore . .

I'm not speaking about "substance" (khamr) . . but the "consequence" (intoxication) . . the cause and effect . .

and the word "avoid", ie. meaning . . do not even approach of being in that situation

so what is intoxication ?

Muslim Atheism is a theological position for the disbelief in god, religion and the unspecific
but the practical philosophy from the Quran are followed

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #122 on: January 26, 2014, 03:20:07 PM »
Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.

"They ask you about "Khamr"..."

This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.

- - -

how can a substance be intoxicated? learn english please...
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #123 on: January 26, 2014, 03:22:31 PM »
If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance

Is this interpretation valid ?

Is it logical ?


Therefore . .

sorry, no offense, but I will stop here wasting my time, you clearly have not got a clue what you are talking about...

I am closing the browser now...
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

muslims

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #124 on: January 26, 2014, 03:24:37 PM »
how can a substance be intoxicated? learn english please...

See ? You do agree with me that it is not reasonable to interpret it as a substance. .

Could you say to Allah to learn English ?

If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance

Is this interpretation valid ?

Is it logical to understand it as a "substance"?

Therefore it is not reasonable and  your understanding/interpretation of the word is clearly inaccurate . .

It sounds ridiculous . . (unless if it refer to intoxication, or the act of making Khamr itself)

The prohibition is not about the "substance" (khamr). . but about the "consequence" (intoxication) cf. the word "gambling" in [5:90], ie not substance

Therefore . . what is intoxication ?

What is the cause . . and effect . . and when does it starts ?

*

and . .

the word "avoid", ie. meaning . . do not even approach of being in that situation

Is it possible that Allah prohibit the act of making Khamr ? or being intoxicated ? or do not even approach the substance of Khamr ?

Muslim Atheism is a theological position for the disbelief in god, religion and the unspecific
but the practical philosophy from the Quran are followed

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #125 on: January 26, 2014, 03:30:41 PM »
peace Abdul-Hadi

sorry but khamr translates as fermented substance, not intoxicant...

Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

It is best to avoid extremes.

To avoid all alcohol, one would have to avoid many good things--fruit juice, bread, etc. Even then, there is endogenous alcohol production--some people even have a medical condition where they get drunk from endogenous fermentation.

To avoid all intoxicants is impossible. Water is an intoxicant. Oxygen is an intoxicant. To claim that these are not intoxicants is making an argument that alcohol is only an intoxicant when it leads to intoxication.

2:219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say: "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say: "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

4:43 O you who believe, do not approach the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. GOD is Pardoning, Forgiving.

5:90 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are an affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.

5:91 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering GOD and from the contact prayer. Will you be deterred?

6:145 Say: "I do not find in what is inspired to me to be unlawful for any eater to eat except that it be already dead, or running blood, or the meat of pig - for it is foul - or what is a wickedness, dedicated to other than GOD." But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

7:32 Say: "Who has made unlawful the nice things that GOD has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say: "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.


47:15 Is the example of the Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of wine that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?

ALLAH knows best.

 :peace:

~Abdul-Hadi
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

theNabster

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #126 on: January 26, 2014, 03:34:02 PM »
See ? You do agree with me that it is not reasonable to interpret it as a substance. .

Could you say to Allah to learn English ?

Therefore it is not reasonable and  your understanding/interpretation of the word is clearly wrong . .

The prohibition is not about the "substance" (khamr). . but about the "consequence" (intoxication) cf. the word "gambling" in [5:90], ie not substance

Therefore . . what is intoxication ?

What is the cause . . and effect . . and when does it starts ?

a substance cannot be intoxicated because a substance does not ingest...

I and you can get intoxicated by an intoxicating substance...

the word intoxicant is a misnomer for alcohol... alcohol becomes toxic only when ingested in very large quantities...

a toxic substance kills you...

nicotine is a toxic substance...

well I am glad this thread has become very lively ;)
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to
them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.

muslims

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #127 on: January 26, 2014, 03:42:56 PM »
a substance cannot be intoxicated because a substance does not ingest...

I and you can get intoxicated by an intoxicating substance...

the word intoxicant is a misnomer for alcohol... alcohol becomes toxic only when ingested in very large quantities...

a toxic substance kills you...

nicotine is a toxic substance...

So . . when does being intoxication starts ? ie. . .

During the initial consumption. . ie. the cause . . ?

the middle . . or at the end . . ie. the effect/consequences, being heavily drunk and cannot control himself . . ?

*

and secondly . .

What does the prohibition (avoid) is related to ?

Whether it is . . .

        1. Avoid the substance of Khamr ? Is it logical ?
        2. Avoid the making of Khamr ? Is it logical ?
        3. Avoid of being intoxicated by Khamr ? Is it logical ?

1? 2? or 3? or else ?

Muslim Atheism is a theological position for the disbelief in god, religion and the unspecific
but the practical philosophy from the Quran are followed

The_Chimp

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #128 on: January 26, 2014, 03:45:30 PM »
Quote
the_chimp... (you seem to really be now)

Did not understand this.

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Quote
as I said in my first answer to you, avoiding Satan, his whispers, and the tools he uses to manipulate is what it to be avoided...

You said - I answered. It is not avoiding "Satan". It clearly is not - It is avoid the "Rijs". Repeating the same thing without answering objective raised - is not impressive - it does not further debate . . . and it is sign of being "stubborn".

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Quote
inebriation and consuming alcohol are two different things...

And you only become drunk BY consuming alcohol.

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Quote
and avoiding is not the same as not coming near to, you are confusing matters and contexts...

Yet - I showed you "confusing" the usage as it were.

What does avoid mean? To stay clear of something.  And what is "do not come near" - if not to stay away?

Please explain the actual difference? Do not just claim they are different.

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Quote
and I am currently enjoying a Bordeaux Superior red Wine while I am writing this ;)

And?

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Quote
I can picture you frothing at the mouth like these idiotic mullahs when they are in the middle of a heated preach...

you crack me up dude... thanks for making me laugh... :)

Petty abuse gets you nowhere. It is simply illogical to target the person rather than his arguments. Kind of shows you have run out. . .

The_Chimp

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Re: Alcohol/intoxicants.
« Reply #129 on: January 26, 2014, 03:48:10 PM »
Quote
If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance

Is this interpretation valid ?

Is it logical to understand it as a "substance"?


Therefore . .

It is not clear what you are referring to. khamar cannot be translated as "Substance" - dictionary says no.

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