Author Topic: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily  (Read 19692 times)

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11078
  • Karma +13/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2014, 03:24:38 PM »
Br. Mazhar,
salaam/peace.

I know point in time does not necessarily mean duration. You, like myself, use verses to determine time parameters of salat. I am simply trying to ascertain what verses you use and how you use them in a clear manner so we can actually examine your view.


I will try one last time to clarify my request.

From here: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg346685#msg346685
I said:
Quote
For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat:

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time: start point (with Quran references)
Time: end point (with Quran references)

In my article: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
I said:
Quote
A relatively common problem in such articles is that whilst verses are cited to indicate times, the specific times are not clearly explained and defined. This is likely because specifics do not exist. For clarity, it is preferable to have the following basic information made clear IF it is available, for each salat:

name/reference for salat as per Quran, if any (verse references for this)
salat time range: start point and end point (verse references for this)

For sake of argument, let's assume everything you said about grammar in your post above is correct, my request does NOT depend on whether you or I view it as a name or not, all I am requesting are the salat references and times of each. I actually have little problem accepting what you said is correct, because whether it is a name or not is irrelevant, as both options (i.e. name or not name) are covered in my request.

So let me clarify and make it as simple as I possibly can. Pay VERY close attention to this next part.

For each of the 5 salat daily in your view, in sequence, please provide these 3 pieces of information:

1)
the reference for the salat from The Quran, IF it has one (verse references for this)
i.e. whatever you refer to it as, I dont care if you refer to it as "1st salat of the day" or even if it has no reference/term as long as you clearly state so.

2)
salat start point IF it has one (verse references for this)
Be as specific as you can for the start point IF it has one. If it does not have one just say so.

3)
salat end point IF it has one (verse references for this)
Be as specific as you can for the end point IF it has one. If it does not have one just say so.



Please note I will not respond if you refer to your diagram, which I personally find unclear, and it is likely no coincidence no one on this forum has ever used it (nor your article) to explain to others when 5 salat daily from Quran are meant to be performed.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4996
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2014, 01:20:30 PM »
Peace Wakas.

 In her book Muhammad, A Biography of the Prophet, Harper, 1992, pp. 148 and 163, Armstrong mentioned - without quoting sources - that the Arabs during the time of Muhammad also practiced three daily Salat prayers similar to the Jews, i.e. morning, noon and evening. In Quran 11:114, three Salat prayers are described at both ends of the day, and at night'
Since the " Qibla" change or as you described yourself, after the " Miraaj" they practiced 5 daily salat prayers.

 The Quran  lists all five daily prayer times, from dawn, noon, afternoon, sunset/evening to the night, see 24:58, 17:78, 2:238.


These "Salawat" must be observed at specific times during the day (4:103):
1. The Dawn salat must be observed from dawn until before sunrise.
2. The Noon salat is due when the sun start to decline from its highest point at noon up to mid afternoon.
3. The Afternoon salat can be observed from mid afternoon until prior to sunset.
4. The Sunset prayer becomes due after sunset up to when twilight disappears.
5. The night salat can be observed after the twilight disappears from the sky up to dawn.

These are the windows that will be open for each salat. Once the window closes the salat cannot be made up.

I have already given you the references of the 5 daily salat earlier in the thread.

Peace to you.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7347
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2014, 11:54:57 PM »
Salamun alaikum;


1. صَلَاةِ الْفَجْرِ : Lane says: Basic perception: He clave, [a thing]; cut, or divided, [it] lengthwise: this is the primary signification, whence several others, to be mentioned below, are derived: Time reference:   فَجْرٌ  [Daybreak; dawn;] the light of morning; (Mgh, K;) because it is a cleaving of the darkness from before the light; (Mgh;) i. e., the redness of the sun in the darkness of night; (K;) the فَجْر in the end of the night is like the شَفَق in the beginning thereof: (S, O:) it is twofold: the first is called الفَجْرُ الكَاذِبُ [the false dawn]; that which rises without extending laterally, (المُسْتَطِيلُ, Mgh, Msb,) which appears black, presenting itself like an obstacle (مُعْتَرِضًا) [on the horizon]: 

2, 3, 4: These are mentioned in one compound sentence:



The figure of speech is climax; placement of words in ascending order towards the incoming moments of night.

The two timings for obeying the command وَأَقِمِ الصَّلاَةَ : are طَرَفَيِ النَّهَارِ:

It a possessive phrase for which reason Noon of first DUAL noun is dropped: the two visual transitions-edges [Solar ephemeris: position] of the bright day tapering towards the incoming night.   

The fourth is: وَأَقِمِ الصَّلاَةَ at َزُلَفًا مِّنَ اللَّيْلِ
"the early moments of the night". This sentence/time is defined by referring to the Sun:

"the point in time of rubbing and smoothly getting away of the Sun to the boundary of night getting cool and dark".

and

5    صَلَاةِ الْعِشَاءِ : the definite time is الْعِشَاءِ 

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7347
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2014, 12:44:18 AM »


I wish someone who knows the scientific delicacies of revolving of day and night reflects on the choice of words and their placements in this compound sentence. The day is ascending and the moments of night are approaching-drawing near to it.

diamantinehoneybunch

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1006
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2014, 02:13:31 AM »
Salat, SJD and RK3 are often mentioned separately.
This profile is dead. It was assasinated by its owner :D

I am no longer of an adherent or believer of any religion. So some of my views that have been expressed here may no longer represent or reflect my current views.

rahenijaat1

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2014, 07:56:48 AM »
 :)
The Corrupt, Sectarian and Criminal "Ulama Karam" are responsible for the Downfall and Humiliation of this Ummah at the hands of the kuffaar. These criminal Ulama Karam have made the Ummah their slaves, and have divided them into Haram and Mushrik SECTS!
These Criminal "Ulama Karam" knowingly stop people from Allah.
Indeed the biggest criminals are the people themselves. They delibrately run away from Allah and His Exalted Quran.

TruthBehindIt

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 175
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2014, 08:08:54 AM »

Salam and Peace....!

In Al-Quran 3: 7, Allah mentions there are two type of Verses in The Book of Hidayah......"Mutashabihaat" and "Muhkamaat".

....."In it are clear verses, which are the foundation of the Book, and others (that are) allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is a deviation, they will follow that which is allegorical in them (verses), seeking mischief, and seeking (their own) interpretation of it. And no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those firm in knowledge say: ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And no one receives admonition except those with understanding."   (3: 7)

Some people....deviation in their hearts....seeking mischief.....seek their own INTERPRETATIONS of Mutashabihaat.

Now.....the point is .........what is the meaning of Mutashabihaat......I am not going to put dictionary meaning.
One thing we all know is that,...........Mutashabihaat are such Verses on which we can never become unanimous.....absolutely impossible.
Again.......Mutashabihaat Verses are those on which we are bound to have differences of opinions....for sure.

Unseen are described in similes, metaphors and allegories (Mutashaabihaat) for your understanding. But those who are given to crookedness in their hearts pursue the allegories and try to give them literal meanings, thus creating dissension of thought. None encompasses their final meaning (of such as the Essence of God, His Throne, His Hand, His Book of Decrees, the exact mode of revelation on the heart of the messengers, the Eternity) but God.

So.....everybody will have his own interpretaion of Mutashabihaat.........So far so good.

But bad aspect starts when some people try to impose their own interpretations of Mutashabihaat on others, and want them to follow it.....they are the ones for whom Allah says....."Then those in whose hearts is a deviation, they will follow that which is allegorical in them (verses), seeking mischief, and seeking (their own) interpretation of it."

This means, clearly.........that Mutashabihaat Verses can never be something we are Commanded to obey......because they can never become Muhkamaat.

Now, in my understanding.......all those Verses of Al Quran on which we differ, are Mutashabihaat...........and everyone of us has his own undertanding........some of those Verses are Verses in which we find the words "Salaat", "Sujood", "Ruku" etc.

All those who claim to follow Al Quran Alone.........some say there is no ritual Salaat.......some say, there are ritual Salaat also....some say five times a day....some say no only three times........some say only two times.
All trying to prove their interpretations putting before us Verses from Al Quran.....and all wish and insist their interpretation is best and must be followed.

The word in Al Quran......Salaat....for example........the Quran Aloners will never unite on one understanding (ritual, or not ritual)...........and as such, can never unite.....is Salaat (ritual, or not ritual) also not a Mutashabihaat....?

Disputing over the word "Salaat (is ritual, or is not ritual)".........will create distance among us and divide us.

Better do what you/we understand best..........the main thing is .........if we are really truthful, honest and sincere.........whatever we understand and follow.........Allah will be pleased.
The Creator who created us top to bottom.......knows what is in our hearts.

And Allah will not be please..........if anyone of us try to impose his own understanding/interpretation of the word "Salaat".

-----"(They say): ?Our Lord, let not our hearts deviate after when You have guided us, and bestow upon us mercy from Yourself. Indeed, You are the Bestower.?   (3: 8 )

If one understands truthfully, honestly and sincerely, there are rituals.......then he must do it.....
......if one understands truthfully, honestly and sincerely, there are no rituals........then don't do it.

If someone falls in physical sujood before Allah, who is there to object this act......if Allah is has no objections.

For ritual Salaat, any methodology is acceptable before Allah........if the ritual is for Allah Alone....and not for any ghairillah.

But...remember......the mankind does not need our rituals (if there is any).........the (oppressed) mankind needs our Attention, Goodness, Kindness, Help, Peace.

And Goodness is something on which no one of us/even mankind, can have different opinions.
And Goodness is fully mentioned in Al Quran.........and all those Verses mentioning Goodness....are MUHKAMAAT.

Goodness.........is an International (Natural) Language.
People of different nations, even if they dont understand each other's languages.............can be Good to one another.

Allah will accept all those truthful and sincere hearts that bows before Allah's Clear Commandments "MUHKAMAAT", which are Foundation of Deen, and if they are not followed, there is no Deen.



Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7347
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2014, 09:30:41 AM »
Salamun alaika,

Mutashabihaat: [Active participle-feminine-Form-VI] A little concentration will tell that metaphors are not used in commands and injunctions.

"MUHKAMAAT": [Passive Participle-feminine-Form-IV]. Commands, injunctions, orders use imperative verbs. Salat is the object of imperative verb; hence it is not in the category of Mutashabihaat.

Moreover the conduct of scholars with tilted hearts is not with reference to ayat-Mutashabihaat but it is about the Qur'aan {minho-pronoun is masculine referring the whole Qur'aan]

Grand Qur'aan in the 21st Century

Miscellany of Grand Qur'aan: Format and Organization; two types of unitary passages

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11078
  • Karma +13/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2014, 04:30:38 AM »
peace good logic,

I have already given you the references of the 5 daily salat earlier in the thread.

And I have already replied. You use the same verses and similar argument as I already discuss in the article.

I even asked you to exactly highlight wherein you differ with regard to timings. You highlighted ZERO differences.

Please note, that is not to say there is no differences but if you can't be bothered highlighting them or presenting the information in the requested format, then I will not respond.

The reason I used br. Joseph's article as the primary reference was he actually attempted to clarify each salat and its timing, thus making it easy to examine.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4996
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2014, 05:04:33 AM »
Peace Wakas.

I have given you my answers and reasons for 5 salat per day from Qoran.

I have also given you why I came to the conclusion of following the messenger. GOD always clarifies the disputes/disagreements by sending a messenger.

With all due respect, I close by wishing you well with your tasks.

May the Lord guide us to His true path.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?

 http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/good-logic/