Author Topic: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily  (Read 22084 times)

Mazhar

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2014, 12:05:14 AM »
It is more correct to say As-Salamu. The Arabic definite article is required. Otherwise the "Alaika" would become an adjectival clause for the "Salamun" and what you are after is a complete meaningful sentence!

Sorry - little gripe!

"Alaika" is a Prepositional Phrase. It relates to the predicate. Salamun is a Verbal Noun. The difference between a Verb and Verbal Noun is that the verb has time reference while verbal noun has time reference only to the point in time of context. The use of definite verbal noun by Easa alahissalam is for reason of associating and particularizing it with points in time.

The_Chimp

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2014, 11:09:37 AM »
"Alaika" is a Prepositional Phrase. It relates to the predicate. Salamun is a Verbal Noun. The difference between a Verb and Verbal Noun is that the verb has time reference while verbal noun has time reference only to the point in time of context. The use of definite verbal noun by Easa alahissalam is for reason of associating and particularizing it with points in time.

Pointing out that Salamun is a verbal noun is not very helpful and neither does it answer the objective put to you.

Verbal noun - is an English concept and does not quite correspond to Arabic.

Salam - is Masdar - that is Verbs originate from it [According to Basri school of Grammar and which came to dominate this]. Verbal noun? Mostly in English - refer to Nouns that derive from a verb.

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The question is one of making complete Arabic sentence. An indefinite noun and a prepositional phrase do not make a good Arabic sentences. That is why you need the 'Salam' to be definite- 'al-Salam'.


GODsubmitter

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2014, 06:59:23 PM »
Pointing out that Salamun is a verbal noun is not very helpful and neither does it answer the objective put to you.

Verbal noun - is an English concept and does not quite correspond to Arabic.

Salam - is Masdar - that is Verbs originate from it [According to Basri school of Grammar and which came to dominate this]. Verbal noun? Mostly in English - refer to Nouns that derive from a verb.

- -

The question is one of making complete Arabic sentence. An indefinite noun and a prepositional phrase do not make a good Arabic sentences. That is why you need the 'Salam' to be definite- 'al-Salam'.

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The_Chimp

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2014, 08:08:17 PM »
:offtopic:

Do you see anything else happening here? Having read his posts . . . I do not think Wakas is really up for a debate. In the mean time - might as well shoot the breeze.

Mazhar

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2014, 11:58:51 PM »
Quote
The question is one of making complete Arabic sentence. An indefinite noun and a prepositional phrase do not make a good Arabic sentences. That is why you need the 'Salam' to be definite- 'al-Salam'.

Grand Qur'aan is the source to verify correctness of use of language Arabic.

وَإِذَا جَاءَكَ الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِنَا فَقُلْ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ Refer 6:54

سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ is a complete nominal sentence; prepositional phrase relates to elided predicate.

قَالَ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكَ [Refer 19:47]

The subject/topic of a nominal sentence can be indefinite in few situations; one is that of supplication or prayer as is the case in above sentences.

A read about ellipses/elisions also might enlighten.
Elipsis [plural ellipses]: omission of implied word: the omission of one or more words from a sentence, especially when what is omitted can be understood from the context.


Earthdom

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2014, 01:59:38 AM »
Salaam

This is about pronoun/dhamir.

3alaykum/عَلَيْكُمْ and 3alayka/عَلَيْكَ, both  of this are true.

-kum/كُمْ is pronoun of antum, the plural form of "you".
-ka/كَ is pronoun of anta, the singular form of "you".

Also there is no called "Al Salam" , the word س is syamsiyah alphabet, and all syamsiyah words don't use definite alif-lam, but alif with following huruf.

Example : اسّلَمْ, the definite used in this word is Alif and sa' not Alif-lam.




Wakas

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2014, 02:55:13 AM »
Do you see anything else happening here? Having read his posts . . . I do not think Wakas is really up for a debate. In the mean time - might as well shoot the breeze.

Careful you don't shoot yourself in the foot, in the meantime.


This challenge has been posted on multiple Quran-islam facebook groups also, but so far, only 3 takers (I'm not even sure good logic confirmed). I was hoping for more. I will give it a little longer, if not, 3 will have to do.
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Timur

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2014, 05:24:20 AM »
سلم عليك

Also there is no called "Al Salam" , the word س is syamsiyah alphabet, and all syamsiyah words don't use definite alif-lam, but alif with following huruf.

Huh? Alif-lam is always used, but the lam is not pronounced when the first letter of the word is a "sun letter". Hence السلم is a correct arabic word (note: salam is written without alif in the reading/"quran").

The_Chimp

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2014, 08:48:17 AM »
Careful you don't shoot yourself in the foot, in the meantime.


This challenge has been posted on multiple Quran-islam facebook groups also, but so far, only 3 takers (I'm not even sure good logic confirmed). I was hoping for more. I will give it a little longer, if not, 3 will have to do.

Nothing like a  Jab Jibe to get a reaction!

There aint going to be many more . . . so either get on with it - or quit it, petal.

The_Chimp

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Re: A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 08:53:06 AM »
Grand Qur'aan is the source to verify correctness of use of language Arabic.

وَإِذَا جَاءَكَ الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِنَا فَقُلْ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ Refer 6:54

سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ is a complete nominal sentence; prepositional phrase relates to elided predicate.

قَالَ سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكَ [Refer 19:47]

The subject/topic of a nominal sentence can be indefinite in few situations; one is that of supplication or prayer as is the case in above sentences.

A read about ellipses/elisions also might enlighten.
Elipsis [plural ellipses]: omission of implied word: the omission of one or more words from a sentence, especially when what is omitted can be understood from the context.

Quote
prepositional phrase relates to elided predicate.

And herein lies your answer . . . and why السلام عليكم is correct.

In your version Alikum relates NOT to an implied predicate but to Salamun the noun . . . hence it is not a complete sentence.

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Quote
سَلاَمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ is a complete nominal sentence

No it isn't.

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Quote
The subject/topic of a nominal sentence can be indefinite in few situations; one is that of supplication or prayer as is the case in above sentences.

This makes no sense at all . . . why would subject type dictate difference of grammar? The verse you give . . . is not a complete sentence.

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The complete sentence is

السلام عليكم