Quote from: Armanaziz on July 22, 2014, 11:04:42 PM
Salamun alaikum.
Thanks Huruf for the clarification. You recognize the ?fa? but did not explain why you are reading it as ?for/because? meaning it is explaining the preceding term (the flesh of swine), rather than developing on the previous theme like ?so / then?. Can you give some other examples from Qur?an where you think ?fa? is used to explain the preceding term (as ?for/because?)? Check, for example, in the below cases where ?so / then? seems to be more appropriate translation for ?fa? rather than ?for/because?:
2:16 أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ اشْتَرَوُا الضَّلَالَةَ بِالْهُدَىٰ فَمَا رَبِحَت تِّجَارَتُهُمْ وَمَا كَانُوا مُهْتَدِينَ
For/Because: They are the ones ? who exchanged deviation for guidance ? for/because their trade has not profited, and they do not happen to be the guided ones . (Doesn't sound right)
So/Then: They are the ones ? who exchanged deviation for guidance ? so their trade has not profited, and they do not happen to be the guided ones . (Sounds right).
2:17 مَثَلُهُمْ كَمَثَلِ الَّذِي اسْتَوْقَدَ نَارًا فَلَمَّا أَضَاءَتْ مَا حَوْلَهُ ذَهَبَ اللَّهُ بِنُورِهِمْ وَتَرَكَهُمْ فِي ظُلُمَاتٍ لَّا يُبْصِرُونَ
For/Because: Their example (is) like (the) example of: (someone) who kindled a fire, for/because as it illuminated what was around him, Allah took their light away and left them in darkness - they don?t see. (Doesn't sound right)
So/Then: Their example (is) like (the) example of: (someone) who kindled a fire, then as it illuminated what was around him, Allah took their light away and left them in darkness - they don?t see. (Sounds right).
So, for me:
6:145 قُل لَّا أَجِدُ فِي مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيَّ مُحَرَّمًا عَلَىٰ طَاعِمٍ يَطْعَمُهُ إِلَّا أَن يَكُونَ مَيْتَةً أَوْ دَمًا مَّسْفُوحًا أَوْ لَحْمَ خِنزِيرٍ فَإِنَّهُ رِجْسٌ أَوْ فِسْقًا أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ ۚ فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ غَيْرَ بَاغٍ وَلَا عَادٍ فَإِنَّ رَبَّكَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
For/Because: Say, ?I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats ? except ? that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; for/because indeed it is pollution; or willful disobedience - initiated for other than Allah with it.? Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor transgressing; then indeed your Master is Relenting, Kind. (Doesn't seem to be right)
So/Then: Say, ?I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats ? except ? that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; then indeed it is pollution or willful disobedience - initiated for other than Allah with it.? Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor transgressing; then indeed your Master is Relenting, Kind. (Seems to be right).
Please note that I am not carrying on this discussion because I have a problem to accept "flesh of swine" as a pollution - but rather so that we can learn the correct interpretation/usage of the prefix "fa" - which will enable us to follow the logic of Qur'an accurately - throughout the book.
As for "flesh of swine" my take is as follows:
1. "Pollution" or not - it is PROHIBITED in Qur'an for believers - so we (believers) must avoid it, but I do not think we can or should force this prohibition on non-believers.
2. There are strong health arguments why "flesh of swine" may be harmful, but those alone do not justify an explicit prohibition, because:
a) There are many other harmful foods, but those have been left to our judgment rather than making them explicitly prohibited food. The commandment "Eat from the good things that I have provided you" already suffices as an instruction to avoid harmful foods.
b) In spite of there being strong arguments on pork being harmful / risky, billions of people on this planet eat pork - and I am not sure there is enough data/evidence to support that the pork eaters are indeed ill-health or have lower life-expectancy (due to higher propensity of disease) compared to their non-pork-eating counterparts.
Some quick comments on the verses 2:172-173 that you have quoted: Verse 2:172 already instructs us to eat the good food. then verse 2:173 says Allah ONLY prohibited a, b and c. If we infer that Allah is listing the things which are not "good" then we have to argue that a, b, c is the comprehensive list of bad things - which is clearly not the case. So, for me a more appropriate interpretation is - we are instructed to eat good things based on our judgement (2:172) in addition Allah ONLY prohibited a, b, c, superceding our judgement of good and bad (2:173) - everything else is subject to our judgement.
So, for me the 3 named prohibitions in Qur'an - i) the carrion, ii) blood and iii) flesh of swine - are prohibitions that we MUST adhere to because of our faith in Qur'an notwithstanding any elaborate reason or scientific justification for or against them. And that it good enough for me - because I do believe that Qur'an is the Word of Allah and it does have the authority to prohibit certain foods for reasons beyond our knowledge - to test our faith in the book. (Note: I do not give similar status/authority to any other book, for example the Hadis books / Fatwa of so called scholars).
I refrain from eating flesh of swine for the sole reason that I believe Qur'an to be the word of Allah - not because of my dislike of it or any scientific/health reason - and I have absolutely no shame / hesitance to declare it to any group.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman
Fa innahu rijs.
what is the
hu referring to? Must be the antecedent and not what follows. And your interpretation that it follows from that that it is rijs OR willful disobedience OR upon which other beside Allah has been invoked cannot be.
For me it is clear that the fa is still an explanation of what precedes because of the hu and the the fact that the rijs is in nominative, and then it continues listing the things that should not be eaten in accusative as the preceeding things mentionned as not to be eaten which are also in accusative, so the fa opens and explanation which may refer just to the pig or to all the previous things mentionned in accusative, an explanation which ends in rijs in nominative, and thereapon continues with another AW with what follows in accusative, the same as the mayitan, damam adn lahma khinzir.
You cannot have rijs and fisqan being attributed to the same because rijs is nominative fiscan accusative they have very different functions in the sentence. the accusative in fisqan after the "aw" (or) makes it rejoin the enumeration with the previous accusatives.
That is the way that is being translated, as far as I can judge, by all translators I have noticed, and although translators not always make the best choices, I see no reason in this case to propose anything different. I think that is the correct understanding.
The other two ayas you quote are completely different, in them with the fa new sentences are started. Not so in the 6.125, which is an incise sentence, that is an explanation of something already said in the middle of a longer sentence.
I think the reason I remembered "li" instead of fa is because in fact in my gramatical mind, they amounted to explain the same in that phrase.
As to other harmful foods, I have already spoken about that. But since it seems that no notice is taken, I will repeat: none of those anonymous harmful things for consumption, apart from alcohol, are staple diets almost everywherelike pig is or like alcohol is. Neither pig nor alcohol are prohibited out any esoteric reason, but for very material and health reason. Physical health or social health.
If what you refer is to things like cholesterol and so on, that is something else. People are liable to commit excesses, but those are excesses, like eating to much cheese which in fact may cause to have bad cholesterol, but those are excesses, not something due to the food itself. If you eat too much red meat you might also get some ailment. As to that populations who eat pork are as healthy as others, I very very much doubt that any serious and comprehensive study has been done on that. And I also doubt that it is going to be made. It would be too upsetting and give rise to too many problems, but what offers no doubt is that as populations have better buying power, they upgrade their meat consumption from pork to veal or something else. Pork is the lowest scale. But in spite of lack of comprehensive investigations, what is known "privately", such as in medical practice, is very eloquent.
If you go back to my messages in this I have said many things, I won't repeat myself, finally I am no trying to proselitize, but I do want that there should not be any doubt, because as I did say it is for me not a question of tolerance, I am not in the business of minding other peoples' business, but if a serve food to anybody I will not serve them bad food. As simple as that. If you want to give me lessons of tolerance on that count, I surely do not need them. I do not serve people alcohol either. If on their own the eat shit that is their own sweet business not mine, but it would be gross that I serve something I know is harmful and which I would not eat nor give to eat to anybody I care for. And of course if I talk about that with anybody I say what I think, I do not say ?oh yes, eat a lot of pork, it is so good, that more than tolerance would be idiocy.
Salaam