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Attack on Pork Pillar of Islam

Started by noshirk, October 22, 2013, 04:49:28 AM

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Alkitab الكتاب

Quote from: noshirk on October 22, 2013, 04:49:28 AM
Pork pillar of islam is one of the strangest prescriptions of Allah. There is absolutely no reason given in quran for that interdiction.
Pork is eaten by many people in the world and whatever scholars says, it seems that there is no particular disease linked to Pork.


Salam ,

Even if iam 100 % sure that is about a dirty animal because he eat dirts and he eat meat too , so he is rijs رجس , (rijs) is anythings mixed , not pure not clean . In our place something  khanz خانز mean with a bad smell  , in fact anything (khaanz) ( with bad smell )  shouldn't be eaten anyway . And Pazuzu is wright about the root of the word its kanz خنز .

So even In any case what would the word flesh of the khanzyir be in 6:148 , the animal that are lawful to eat are the 8 pairs mentioned in the qur'an + the catch of the seas , and i witness by allaah that anyone adding anything to that 8 pair he is fabricating a lie against the teaching of the qur'an  , anyone say the opposite should provide his witness by the name of allaah ?



سورة الأنعام - سورة 6 - آية 145   
قل لا اجد في ما اوحي الي محرما على طاعم يطعمه الا ان يكون ميتة او دما مسفوحا او لحم خنزير فانه رجس او فسقا اهل لغير الله به فمن اضطر غير باغ ولا عاد فان ربك غفور رحيم

6:145( Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me [anything] forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a dead animal or blood spilled out or the flesh of swine - for indeed, it is impure / Rijs - or it be [that slaughtered in] disobedience, dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], then indeed, your Lord is Forgiving and Merciful.")




سورة الأنعام - سورة 6 - آية 143
ثمانية ازواج من الضان اثنين ومن المعز اثنين قل الذكرين حرم ام الانثيين اما اشتملت عليه ارحام الانثيين نبؤوني بعلم ان كنتم صادقين

6:143 ([They are] eight mates - of the sheep, two and of the goats, two. Say, "Is it the two males He has forbidden or the two females or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Inform me with knowledge, if you should be truthful.")


سورة الأنعام - سورة 6 - آية 144     
ومن الابل اثنين ومن البقر اثنين قل الذكرين حرم ام الانثيين اما اشتملت عليه ارحام الانثيين ام كنتم شهداء اذ وصاكم الله بهذا فمن اظلم ممن افترى على الله كذبا ليضل الناس بغير علم ان الله لا يهدي القوم الظالمين

6:144 (And of the camels, two and of the cattle, two. Say, "Is it the two males He has forbidden or the two females or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Or were you witnesses when Allah charged you with this? Then who is more unjust than one who invents a lie about Allah to mislead the people by [something] other than knowledge? Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.)




No need to provide pictures about what the pork eat so it is considered as rijs ( not pure mixture)

Further more in my understanding why particularly the pork is mentioned not other animals out of the 8 pairs is because he was domesticated too , and was largely killed and eaten by many communities

Important : it s not because the meat of swine is not pure so then the pork should be killed , the pork  are a community like us and like  other communities as per 6:38
دراسه تقريبيه
approaching study
عسى ان يهدين ربي لاقرب من هذا رشدا
18:24 "Perhaps Rabbi will guide me to what is nearer than this in comprehension"

Man of Faith

Salaam,

If you are not used to eating pork for a long time you become quite sick when you eat it. I do not know if it happens even with other types of meat though as a natural reaction. I ate pork by mistake a while ago and my stomach got very upset by that.

God bless you
Website reference: [url="http://iamthatiam.boards.net"]http://iamthatiam.boards.net[/url]

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all  :group:

Pork (meat)--no.   :nope:   

Peccary--yes!  :eat:

Btw, some of the other health problems associated with swine include swine flu, and rodents.  Swine are typically fed foods that attract rodents.

ALLAH knows best!

:peace:

~Abdul-Hadi

noshirk

salaam
we have to be honests.
boars eats vegetal and animals that birds eats.

Pork eats what is given him to eat. Industrial pigs eats what farmers give to him.

there is no reason to consider that flesh pork is more rotten that other food.

Pork is served in best restaurants in the world.

I cannot accept the "rotten theory" as theological argument.
The "god said that with no apparent reason then don't eat it even if you don't know why" argument is a more acceptable for me.

Peace
noshirk=trying to never mix teachings of The unique Rabb with other teachings, and specially any kind of clerical teachings.

Ali Nasser

@noshirk, have you discovered anything else in regards to the meaning of khanziir? Your argument has generated great interest from me.

huruf

The fact that someone eats pork once is not usually going to kill him or her, nor may be if he eats all his life, but the point as far as I am concerned is that the Qur'an does give a reason, it is rijs. What is meant by that? That is is not "pure" for consumption. That is born out by the contrast between pig and other mammals. Cattle fed on grass that people otherwise consume have one creature, at most two per delivery, pigs like dogs, have a lot of them. that may mean nothing or may mean something, but obviously makes the meat of pig very tempting to breed, all is gain, but about quality... Only heavy advertising, when people has the means pushes them to prefer something from the pig to lamb or cow, etc.

From the point of view of health, pig is the first thing usually forbidden for many reasons, like pregnancy. I will not point out inconvenients about pigs, because usually when it is mentionned one gets the same answer that that is muslim propaganda and all that. But popularly and commercially we do get massive propaganda about pig products. There is not a muslim I know who does nto get bored to death being told over and over how much we miss when we do not eat ham, the uncooked kind. Boring, boring, boring. Ham (uncooked) from pig is in taste and consistency and quality not a match by far of equivalent uncooked meat from cow, horse, or goat. But the brainwashing is from cradle to burial. And of course, like pointed out, while you get one little goat from every birth, with pigs you get massively.

Of course there are questions in the way they are raised in the intensive cattle raising. They are not good food, but they are cratures nevertheless who should have a life worth living. Pig raising is not a charity doing but a business and pigs, which in family economies lead a pigs life, in those industries lead a hellish life, like their chicken counterparts. That also should be a concern.

I come from a country where pig is a usual item, but old people tend not to eat it and prefer other meats. In fact in my family, who used to raise pigs for home consumption, as that usage has been given up, very rarely eat pig. It is mostly sausages to be eat cold and industrially prepared with a lot of spices where people still eat. Its good taste in fact comes from the spices and not from the meat, and tastier things can be produced from turkey or goat, the latter the best to my taste.

I think that if the Qur'an goes to the stretch of excluding pig it is because, althouth there are many other animals in the same case, it is the only one that consistently has been part of the economy at large of whole societies and of usual comsumption. Nobody cares for rats or dogs(except a certain race of dog among chinese). There are no farms for dogs or rats, but pigs can be a big chunk of economy and consumption where they are admitted as staple. I do not think it is fit for that and in fact as societies get richer pig is much less consumed. So I do not think the prohibition is in the magical sense that if you eat once you become perverted or so, but that it is not fit to be staple food. I agree with that. And there are people who are not muslims, just diet conscious and do not eat pig as a staple food. For people with health like Rasputin it may mean nothing, but for people who are not particularly resistant, I do not think that it should be recommended or considered just as healthy as anything else. It is not.

As to birds, I do not think that scavengers are ever consumed usually. The birds that are consumed are chicken, pigeons, and other whose name I do not remember in English,  but it is not particularly stated each species in the Qur'an, because nobody raises those for consumption, but pigs are had that way, raising them.

Salaam

noshirk

Quote from: Ali Nasser on January 04, 2014, 01:45:37 AM
@noshirk, have you discovered anything else in regards to the meaning of khanziir? Your argument has generated great interest from me.

Salaam ali nasser

there is also this verse:

49:12 O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion/conjecture, for some suspicion/conjecture is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite. Would any of you enjoy eating the LAHM/flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful.


i always found strange the analogy made by allah between "eating flesh of a dead brother" and making conjectures on others. But, if Lahm means "what is assembled" and not flesh, like "lahm el khinzeer" can mean "what is assembled by little eyes", then another understanding of this ayat become possible.

As i said before, Khinzeer/little eyes can be opposed to Hour.
The lahm el khinzeer analogy can be compared to the forbidden tree (tree of adam). Don't eat lahm el khinzeer and dont eat from tree of zaqqoum whose fruits are like "heads of chayatins" can be then the same thing.
remark: Please note that heads of chayatin is logically nearest from  flesh then fruits.

Peace
noshirk=trying to never mix teachings of The unique Rabb with other teachings, and specially any kind of clerical teachings.

Ali Nasser

Well, I was reading another thread on this forum, by a guy who appeared as a guest by the name of priest_(something starting with b), he said that khanzir means that which appears bad/rotten. He also pointed out that the jews were not forbidden pig, and that all food of the people of the scripture was made lawful, therefore if swine was lawful, then it must be lawful for us, and khanzir cannot mean pig, but something that is perceived to be bad. Do you have any comments on this?

noshirk

Quote from: Ali Nasser on January 04, 2014, 05:43:00 AM
Well, I was reading another thread on this forum, by a guy who appeared as a guest by the name of priest_(something starting with b), he said that khanzir means that which appears bad/rotten. He also pointed out that the jews were not forbidden pig, and that all food of the people of the scripture was made lawful, therefore if swine was lawful, then it must be lawful for us, and khanzir cannot mean pig, but something that is perceived to be bad. Do you have any comments on this?

Salaam

Brother Pazuzu mentionned that hypothesis

Quote from: Pazuzu on October 23, 2013, 07:32:40 AM
Are you certain of this? I was under the impression that the root is the verb "kh-n-z"  خنز , which can mean something that is rotten or filthy (or has become so as a result of human intervention or tampering).

i discussed this point here
Quote from: noshirk on October 23, 2013, 11:03:53 AM
.
apparently, from your name, you seem to understand arabic.
The problem is how to add a ra to root (khanaza + RA ?). It is not an usual practice in arabic.
while adding a Noun to root (KHAZARA+ NA as FANAALA)  is more acceptable practice in arabic.


Peace
noshirk=trying to never mix teachings of The unique Rabb with other teachings, and specially any kind of clerical teachings.

Ali Nasser

I don't know any Arabic at all. I've lived in Australia my entire life. I can pronouce the letters, and read an arabic word pretty well after a few seconds of looking at it. But that's about it really.

However, in regards to the prohibition of pig, I've always been in a little denial. I always tell myself, god has a reason for everything, and forbidding swine was only explained as being vile. At that time, people would have been confused, and seeing as it was revealed in the desert, it doesn't make sense to forbid something they never even ate in the first place. The definition of 'rotten meat', or the like, fits into it perfectly, because it is backed up by saying we have permitted everything good. And prohibiting spoiled meat is self explanatory, you can understand that logic without specific reason. I'm just holding back for now until i can verify this 110% for myself though.