Response to Mazhar's article on salat timings

[Wakas]

peace all,

Summary thread from here onwards. The reason for the summary thread is that it took over 8 pages of the original thread to answer the questions so they are too spread out in my view, and I may use this thread as a reference in future, so this makes it easier for myself and readers.

My questions to him are numbered, his replies are linked underneath:

These comments are with regard to this salat article of Mazhar.

1)
You discuss 2:238 and assume there are two salat each side of al salat al wusta - why two? why not 3 each side etc
2)
In 2:238 why mention one of the five salat separately according to you, when it is already covered by the plural salawat?
3)
According to you, which salat can be done on the move (2:239) "al salat al wusta" or the other "salawat"? And what is your evidence for this.
Reply: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605661.msg335490#msg335490

4)
what is your evidence for "zulaf" meaning "early"?
Reply: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605661.msg335491#msg335491

5)
You repeatedly cite "salat al fajr" and "salat al 3sha" as reference points but you have no reference for the other alleged 3 salat hence refer to them as "this al salat" or "al salat for the point in time of...".etc etc - why does Quran not clarify the reference terms for the alleged other 3 in your view? If it does give the terms, please provide them.
Reply: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605661.msg335977#msg335977

6)
When discussing "salat al fajr" with me you said this is not a name of a "salat" but in your article you state "The other two prescribed al salat are also NAMED by the point in time" (then you reference 24:58)
Reply: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605661.msg335979#msg335979

7)
You seemingly contradict yourself when you say "The remaining two timings for al salat are at two visual transition EDGES of the day which are in the LATER day..." - ask anyone about what the two edges of daytime are and they will never discuss them being later in the day.
Reply: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605661.msg336038#msg336038

8 )
You seemingly have no break in-between some salat.
9)
Some of your 5 salat have specific times AND time-ranges whilst others do not - why?
Reply: http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605661.msg336140#msg336140


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My conclusion: Bro Mazhar's article on the 5 daily salat timings perfectly demonstrates the common problems/inconsistencies encountered by those claiming such a position as per Quran. These unresolved issues have been present in works by others who have claimed the same and will no doubt be repeated again in the future.

I personally did not find his replies satisfactory, but that could just be me. Readers can review the above and make up their own minds. All of these issues have been discussed before on this forum and elsewhere. The compilation of salat links thread is good start.

[Man of Faith]

Salaam,

I do not deem them satisfactory either even if I do not share your understanding of portions of the so-called salat. He is just trying desperately to defend the five prayer tradition without any sign of it being more than three or two in your case, or in my understanding infinite middle prayers.

God bless you

[Mazhar]

Salaam,

I do not deem them satisfactory either even if I do not share your understanding of portions of the so-called salat. He is just trying desperately to defend the five prayer tradition without any sign of it being more than three or two in your case, or in my understanding infinite middle prayers.

God bless you

I am not defending the so called tradition. I have given the Ayahs of Qur'aan that gives explicitly the five timings specifically with As-Salat. None cares to rebut that and keeps on talking and talking twos, threes and ridiculous hadith traditions.

[Mazhar]

Q:

1)You discuss 2:238 and assume there are two salat each side of al salat al wusta - why two? why not 3 each side etc

2)
In 2:238 why mention one of the five salat separately according to you, when it is already covered by the plural salawat?

Answer

Root "و س ط". For convenience, an entry from Lane's Lexicon is reproduced hereunder:

[The middle, midst, or middle part, of a thing; i. e.,] properly, the part of which several lateral, or outer, portions are equal; as, for instance, the middle finger: but also meaning the part which is surrounded, or enclosed, on its several sides, although unequally: (Msb:) or the part that is between the two sides or extremities of a thing; (M, IB, Mgh, K;) [or the part, or point, that is between every two opposite extremities of a thing; and properly when equidistant;] as, for instance, the centre of a circle:] [unquote]

Yes, two, three, four, five can be on each side of same object- here Salaat.

Since it is a definite noun-referring to the specific Salaat which is in the centre of equivalent number of specific As-sallat on its laterals.

Specific number of As-Salaat is with reference to five timings-schedule which is mentioned in the article thereunder by quoting relevant Ayahs. Thereby the Al-Wusta has two each on its laterals.

Do you think it is abnormality in the manner of placing emphasis by repeating with reference to a unit of whole in a compound sentence?

Question

3)
According to you, which salat can be done on the move (2:239) "al salat al wusta" or the other "salawat"? And what is your evidence for this.

Answer

After command, exception for exigencies of situations are mentioned. For As-Salat one has to stand in humble posture; when it is not adviseable to stop, permission is granted not to stand and verbally perform the As-Salat whichever of schedules timings it is.

Question

4)
what is your evidence for "zulaf" meaning "early"?

Answer

It is already explained in the Article.

Zulfan: It is an Indefinite; broken plural; feminine noun in accusative case. The basic perception is to approach or draw near. These moments-duration is then described by its boundaries in the Ayah quoted therein-in this part:

The timings are set with reference to current local solar ephemeris of people.

Question

5)
You repeatedly cite "salat al fajr" and "salat al 3sha" as reference points but you have no reference for the other alleged 3 salat hence refer to them as "this al salat" or "al salat for the point in time of...".etc etc - why does Quran not clarify the reference terms for the alleged other 3 in your view? If it does give the terms, please provide them.

Answer

Question 5's answer might be seen in my latest post in your thread. [It quoted Ayahs showing five specific timings for As-Salat]

6)
When discussing "salat al fajr" with me you said this is not a name of a "salat" but in your article you state "The other two prescribed al salat are also NAMED by the point in time" (then you reference 24:58

Answer

I did not expect such a question from an academic. A possessive phrase is not a name in the sense of specific identity. It denotes reference when associated with some point in time. "They are also referred by the point in time".

Question

7)
You seemingly contradict yourself when you say "The remaining two timings for al salat are at two visual transition EDGES of the day which are in the LATER day..." - ask anyone about what the two edges of daytime are and they will never discuss them being later in the day.

Answer

This question too was not expected from an academic, particularly he who is compiling Root List using Lane. Please visit Lane and again my article.

"ط ر ف"  its basic perception as quoted in classical lexicon of Ibn Faris [died 1005] is:
يدلُّ على حدِّ الشيء وحَرفهِ
That it leads to the perception of extremity of a thing and its corners-edges.

Question

8 )
You seemingly have no break in-between some salat.

9)
Some of your 5 salat have specific times AND time-ranges whilst others do not - why?

Answer

Please visit your thread Assalat alwusta and see the image and schedule of five Salat.

Question

And if I may add another question: how many years have you been reading and studying Quran? A rough figure will do.

Answer

Brother, irrelevant question. My study is uploaded on site. Please point out omissions for correction. Studying a book of foreign language is merely a skill of translating it; its comprehension is obtaining knowledge from it. I am a skilled laborer possessing complete kit of tools. Time is my contribution.