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[Man of Faith]

Kafir - Does it really means to reject or disbelieve?

I went into some serious thinking after philosophizing upon which people The Master will really place in Hell. I begun to think that the Arabic word 'kafir' does not simply mean reject/disbelieve, but it means much more. And more or less all instances with the word is in a negative context where its attributed targets have been doing very bad things, and not simply disbelieving in God. I have not yet found an instance of when God threatens of throwing someone in Hell except while doing some serious mischief.

I was thinking it may mean "corruptor" rather than disbeliever/rejector, but that did not fit all occurrences of the word in "mid-quranic" sections. 'Corrupt with God and His Messenger' it would indicate with my imaginative theory which does sound lame. Yet all known instances of the word 'kafir' has been in instances where its culprits have done bad things and not simply for being ignorant to God's existence and only saying God does not exist.

And I do not believe in the concept of 'belief' but we can have various levels of faith, but there are no disbelievers and only corruptors or the likes. You need to remember that even Satan is a kafir and he sure knows about God. A kafir is not someone that does not think that God is non-existent. Despite my faulty theory of corruptor, disbeliever or rejector does not fit as translation either. Rejector is a better translation, but if we go into real-life scenarios, atheists deny the entire existence of God and then the Arabic word kafir in inaccurate in my opinion. It is not that target that God in an angry-like way threatens to throw straight into Hell, and which atheists openly use as an argument to call God a terrorist etc. The target 'kafir' in the context of the recitation to X (allegedly Muhammad) is for someone who refuses to harmonize with the force in the universe, i.e. what we generally call God, and they spread mischief, just as Satan.

Someone that does not believe has no faith, but can be a good person as we already know, although they are basically living for nothing and are no better than animals in that regard. The question is if God will throw a person living a righteous albeit with a lack of faith in a supernatural entity. A question is whether this person innately has faith despite being ignorant to this fact. And another is if God will throw an ignorant person which still does good into the hellfire. It does rhyme pretty badly with the narration and virtually 50% of the faith is accomplished merely by doing good.

This topic is something very commonly attacked by atheists on adherents to both the sects Islam and Christianity, and God is oftentimes called a tyrant or terrorist. God comes down on a neanderthal level while being the most advanced entity in the universe. I think that they would be less insistent if they knew that God throws who commit atrocities into Hell and not plainly through lack of faith. In ways I can understand why some people despise "religion" because of all the stupidity that is done in the name of god(s) while attributing it to the Master of the Universe who is innocent of what they do, and that the 'kafiroon' that God mentions in the recitation to X (allegedly Muhammad) are these people performing the stupidity in the world, i.e. all those crimes in the name of god, and it they that God angrily say will taste the retribution of Hell.

And many of the problems stem from the interpretation of this word 'kafir' which is misused plentifully by the sectarians and how "Islam" is perceived by the crowd.

And know that Hell is barely talked about in the text collection referred to as the Bible for some reason, but a retribution from God is commonly referred to. This kind of punishment of Hell does primarily seem to be to the real criminals of the world and not the common atheist without faith. And the concept of Hell is many times used to scare people who do not need to be scared to obey to sectarian rules. One example is if one does not do five prayers per day, exactly the sectarian way, they are thrown in Hell.

Indeed religion is a scary invention.

But kafir is not merely disbelieve or reject except while done so by committing crimes causing a disturbance in the harmony (Islam). You cannot say an atheist is a kafir and that deserves to be killed or be unkind against because of their apparent lack of faith. People, such as the people who killed a woman in Pakistan the past few days are kafirs. They corrupt and do evil. One has to fulfill the criteria of working against the system of God to qualify to be a kafir.

I will try to look deeper into the word because it is important to our understanding. Jesus in the (perhaps unreliable) Gospel testimonies written by his followers said that people had a lack of faith and not that they were disbelievers. You lack iman or do not have iman, but there is no disbeliever. The concept of disbeliever invites to transgression. A disbeliever is in that case someone who corrupts and spreads mischief.

Shame I had no more news on this as I thought when I begun studying the phenomenon with a zoom lens.

God bless you

[JavaLatte]

I went into some serious thinking after philosophizing upon which people The Master will really place in Hell.

Someone that does not believe has no faith, but can be a good person as we already know, although they are basically living for nothing and are no better than animals in that regard. The question is if God will throw a person living a righteous albeit with a lack of faith in a supernatural entity. A question is whether this person innately has faith despite being ignorant to this fact. And another is if God will throw an ignorant person which still does good into the hellfire. It does rhyme pretty badly with the narration and virtually 50% of the faith is accomplished merely by doing good.

This topic is something very commonly attacked by atheists on adherents to both the sects Islam and Christianity, and God is oftentimes called a tyrant or terrorist.

For us, may be very hard to see our loved ones turn away from God. Especially if we perceive them as "good people" or "kind/nice people" by our limited knowledge as human.


I've ever tried many ways in order to make my Christian friend to realize the falsehood of trinity, long time struggle and so many discussions/debates between us.

I was hoping very much that someday he will realize that Jesus is not God. He was a very dear friend, so it's very hard for me to know that he's devout in worshiping Jesus.

After very much struggle in a quite long time and always fail, I finally quit my attempt. I have to trust upon God for his destiny.

God knows what I don't know. I should let God decides what will happen to His own creations.


(6:35)
If their aversion is hard on you (distress you), then perhaps you could make a tunnel in the Earth, or a ladder to the heavens,  in order to bring them bring them a sign. Had God willed, He would have gathered them to the guidance; so do not be of the ignorant ones.

(73:11)
And leave Me to deal with the deniers who enjoy the blessings of life, and give them time for a while.

(74:11)
So leave Me alone with the one I have created.


Those verses remind me to not interfere in the decision of God.

When I was still in my urge to change my Christian friend, then reading those kind of verses was pretty shook me, but over time I learned to accept God's decision over my friend.


I believe any type of attacks/critics from the atheist cannot change God's decree.

God knows very well what He decided for each of us.


Peace.

[Man of Faith]

Peace,

Thanks for your words. I am nowadays sure that all it takes is a person who believes in ONE creator entity and who does good to qualify for The Master's kingdom. So summary is that it takes faith and good deeds and it is declared in the recitation that it is enough. God even says that "they say you have to be "X" to be accepted", but anyone who believes and does good will have nothing to fear. They follow the decree because it does not take barely reading it to know what the decree is. The only ones who dispute about it are those who received it while they know. It is a merciful and simple decree not difficult to follow really. People who follow the popular "Christian values" have practically grasped it. It is only that most people do not have faith except while giving God partners.

God bless you

[JavaLatte]

It is only that most people do not have faith except while giving God partners.

Indeed. That's VERY serious issue.


I believe my Christian friend knows that God is One,

but the problem is he insisted that Jesus = God.

For him, worshiping Jesus is the same as worshiping God.   

His father is a Pastor.


Peace.

[mmkhan]

For us, may be very hard to see our loved ones turn away from God. Especially if we perceive them as "good people" or "kind/nice people" by our limited knowledge as human.

I've ever tried many ways in order to make my Christian friend to realize the falsehood of trinity, long time struggle and so many discussions/debates between us.

I was hoping very much that someday he will realize that Jesus is not God. He was a very dear friend, so it's very hard for me to know that he's devout in worshiping Jesus.

After very much struggle in a quite long time and always fail, I finally quit my attempt. I have to trust upon God for his destiny.

God knows what I don't know. I should let God decides what will happen to His own creations.

(6:35)
If their aversion is hard on you (distress you), then perhaps you could make a tunnel in the Earth, or a ladder to the heavens,  in order to bring them bring them a sign. Had God willed, He would have gathered them to the guidance; so do not be of the ignorant ones.

(73:11)
And leave Me to deal with the deniers who enjoy the blessings of life, and give them time for a while.

(74:11)
So leave Me alone with the one I have created.


Those verses remind me to not interfere in the decision of God.

When I was still in my urge to change my Christian friend, then reading those kind of verses was pretty shook me, but over time I learned to accept God's decision over my friend.

I believe any type of attacks/critics from the atheist cannot change God's decree.

God knows very well what He decided for each of us.


Peace.

Salaam,

MashaAllah, very well said


May Allah reward you the best and guide us on His path
mmKhan

[mmkhan]

Kafir - Does it really means to reject or disbelieve?

I went into some serious thinking after philosophizing upon which people The Master will really place in Hell. I begun to think that the Arabic word 'kafir' does not simply mean reject/disbelieve, but it means much more. And more or less all instances with the word is in a negative context where its attributed targets have been doing very bad things, and not simply disbelieving in God. I have not yet found an instance of when God threatens of throwing someone in Hell except while doing some serious mischief.

Salaam,

I understood the word kafir from 2:34, easy and simple, alhamduliAllah. And disbelieving in Allah is not a kafir as per my understanding.

There are two things shown in 2:34,
1- Refusal of Allah's command.
2- Pride.

These two things made him kafir.
If you notice the derivative of word أَبَىٰ is used in 33:72 as أَبَيْنَ means they refused, but still Allah did not called them kafir as He did for Iblis in 2:34 because they did not do takabbur [proud].


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path
mmKhan

[JavaLatte]

Salaam,

MashaAllah, very well said


May Allah reward you the best and guide us on His path
mmKhan

Thank you, brother mmkhan.   



Note: Correction for 6:35

If their aversion is hard on you (distress you), then perhaps you could make a tunnel in the earth, or a ladder to the heavens,  in order to bring them a sign. Had God willed, He would have gathered them to the guidance, so do not be of the ignorant ones.  (6:35)

[JavaLatte]

2- Pride.

Glad you bring this up.


I suppose many people fall into this "pride/proud/takabbur".

I tend to see that the suggestion such as:

"You should be proud of yourself" <--- is actually a trap!


I think "being proud" is useless.

If we're able to achieve something, then what we need is thankful to Allah, and not need to proud over it.


Peace.

[Man of Faith]

Peace mmkhan,

Thank you for your elaboration. It is dangerous with the understanding that faithlessness is being Kaffir when you associate it with the passages of the recitation because they pronounce that they deserve the fiercest of punishments both in this life with the next giving the Kaffir of the Arab religious sects to show hate against anyone they deem not following their ways. The Master s against this sect-making against the previous receivers of the decree and yet Muslims make the same grand mistake by forming a sect and pronouncing themselves as Muslims in their ignorance whole while their behavior does not suit their claim. Islam is to go into balance/harmony with your Master and fight for The Master's cause to stop oppression and injustice, and if things are "in Islam/faithful/harmonious/balanced like in the prayer by Ebrahem (commonly translated secure by the root of iman). It is an honorable mission in an equally honorable decree. Will you say that these "jihadists" do that?

I propagate that the root s - l - m does not mean submit but rather meld with or go into symbiosis by a form of harmony and peace. You greet a believer with salaam just due to this reason. And you do not say to your brother: "submit" (you dumb fool). You have another word for submit in Quran-Arabic and that is the one commonly used to refer to prostration(s - j - d). So I think some people on this forum were partially right with peacemaker, but not truly right. More like balance or into harmony-maker.

In symbiosis with the creator = peace and prosperity is the meaning whenever the combination with Arabic word islam is used and with 'Allah'. Submission is another topic. So when you greet someone 'salaam' you technically wish them peace and prosperity (through The Master). Submission accidentally entered into the word by misled clerics who know 'sujud' as prostration while it is the word to submit. But to tell them to humble themselves you use sujud. Historically a prostration is to humble yourself to someone which has caused its deep association with the word.

And may The Master continue to enlighten us.

[JavaLatte]

I understood the word kafir from 2:34, easy and simple, alhamduliAllah. And disbelieving in Allah is not a kafir as per my understanding.

There are two things shown in 2:34,
1- Refusal of Allah's command.
2- Pride.

These two things made him kafir.

But, how can we accept/obey Allah's command if we don't believe in Allah?


I mean, if I don't believe in Allah, then I have no reason to accept/obey Allah's commands.

I can't obey someone who I don't even believe that he/she exists.

If I want to accept/obey Allah's commad, then I think first I need to believe in Allah.


Peace.