if Riba is not usury, what Riba can be ?

[noshirk]

Salaam All

i have now the conviction that riba is not usury or anything related to interest rates.

i will not enter in an economic debate. I just have to notice that Riba is severly punished by god and such a penality is too much severe for simple transaction of buying/investing transaction. Actual understanding of Riba will send all of us to hell.

I have, of course, a proposal for what riba could be.
i will not give my understanding now.

I am very interested with what other members of this forum can deduce for quranic reading and root analysis.
let say that it is an experiment i want to make .

as usual: ancients said..., leaders/scholars/hadiths said.., and so on are not receivable arguments.

Please note that "Riba is not usury" is here as hypothesis.

Thanks from now to whose who will give their proposal.

Peace

[Wakas]

peace,

Many people have written on this, including many posts on this forum, to name a few e.g.

http://fazlur-rahman.livejournal.com/2102.html
http://quransmessage.com/articles/riba%20FM3.htm
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12997.0
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604876.0

If you do have an alternative, please also state clearly why other understandings may be wrong, be specific etc.

[noshirk]

peace,

Many people have written on this, including many posts on this forum, to name a few e.g.

http://fazlur-rahman.livejournal.com/2102.html
http://quransmessage.com/articles/riba%20FM3.htm
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12997.0
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604876.0

If you do have an alternative, please also state clearly why other understandings may be wrong, be specific etc.

Salaam Wakas

to be more clear, from my understanding,  i will say that quite no  bank in the world is making riba.

i will not try to state why other understanding may be wrong since these understanding  never prooved that there is in Quran something that point to one of these words : capital, loan, interest, borrower, lender, schedulee of reimbursement and son on.

Actual understanding of Riba is all conjectures.

Riba seems to be related to something some people want to sell and God is saying that they haven't the right to sell it.
my question can be put in these other words:  What is the forbidden good no muslim can sell ?

Peace

[noshirk]

salaam

really surprising.

nobody can doubt that paying or taking interest rates witll not lead t this:
4:161 And for their taking Riba, while they were prohibited from doing so, and for their consuming the money of the people unjustly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful retribution.

wikipedia
An interest rate is the rate at which interest is paid by borrowers for the use of money that they borrow from a lender.

is that worth a painfull retribution ? is only the rich lender who will go to hell or also the poor borrower ?

nobody have an idea for the good it is forbidden to trade with ?

Peace

[Farabi]

Riba can lead people to have debt generation to generation. Even on the Torah each 7 years there should be a debt erasing.

[noshirk]

Salaam

since there is no response, i can say that the experiment is, in someway, a success.

Response is: Riba, from same root as Rabb (educator/teacher), is trading with religion/deen.
Interesting to note that in arabic, word sadaka means both sincere/truthfull sayings and charity.

Riba is what religious scholars (false arbabs, plural of Rabb) eat every day.

i will not discuss this point more.


Peace

[Ayisha]

Jumping in here, and I think I see what you're saying noshirk.

Reading the verses containing the word to me it looks like an excessive addition to a loan/payment or to put it in common terms, ripping people off. Trade is ok, people make profits from trade and that's how trade works. Charging more than is acceptable would be riba. So called Islamic banks just change the name of interest to profit share, the process is no different.

Living in Egypt and being a white foreigner I am quoted a riba amount for most things, I am expected to pay more than a local person so therefore more than is acceptable for trade.

Although I agree on your last statement, there are thousands of 'false sheikhs' peddling their opinions worldwide and making a living from it, religion is not for sale, belief is not for sale.

[Fikachu]

There are 2 types of riba that have been discussed by jurists

1.  an increase in capital without any services provided and speculation (Maisir)

2. commodity exchanges in unequal quantities

[PixelAngelBaby]

Jumping in here, and I think I see what you're saying noshirk.

Reading the verses containing the word to me it looks like an excessive addition to a loan/payment or to put it in common terms, ripping people off. Trade is ok, people make profits from trade and that's how trade works. Charging more than is acceptable would be riba. So called Islamic banks just change the name of interest to profit share, the process is no different.

Living in Egypt and being a white foreigner I am quoted a riba amount for most things, I am expected to pay more than a local person so therefore more than is acceptable for trade.

Although I agree on your last statement, there are thousands of 'false sheikhs' peddling their opinions worldwide and making a living from it, religion is not for sale, belief is not for sale.

You live in Egypt? Hello from sheikh zayed! .

[/*JM*/]

peace,

Many people have written on this, including many posts on this forum, to name a few e.g.

http://fazlur-rahman.livejournal.com/2102.html
http://quransmessage.com/articles/riba%20FM3.htm
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12997.0
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604876.0

If you do have an alternative, please also state clearly why other understandings may be wrong, be specific etc.

Another article, according to which Riba is interest charged when the borrower is no longer solvent.
http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Riba3.pdf