Author Topic: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France  (Read 19195 times)

Solomon

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #100 on: May 22, 2013, 09:51:02 AM »
The Quran [7:81]
"Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

The Bible [Leviticus 18:22]
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Should I quote Hindu and Buddhist scriptures also if you still dont believe?!

You raise a very important point.

Let's assume 90%+ of Islamic clerics hold the view that homosexuality is forbidden (it's far higher than that). So, it follows, the probability of homosexuality being permitted in Islam is 10/100 or 10%.

Now we know that Islam is one of the religions from Abrahamic lineage. As you pointed out, Bible unequivocally says homosexuality is forbidden. Torah says: "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a תועבה toeba "abomination")" (Leviticus 18:22).

What is the probability of the two other Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Judaism, ALSO permitting homosexuality? If we calculate the overall probability that homosexuality is permitted... assuming only 10% of the religious clerics permit homosexuality in each religion, it comes to 0.001 or 0.1%!


Azz

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #101 on: May 22, 2013, 01:19:17 PM »
Peace @Azz.Oh yes, I have not yet answered your question, about comparasion with human picture.

Quran doesn't mentioning about human picture, this means Quran is neutral about it.
Quran doesn't mentioning about same sex marriage, this means Quran is neutral about it.

The verse 7:189 is not talking about forbidding homosexual.Normaly and mostly, a man will married with woman, so that's why Quran  only pointing out about hetero marriage regulations.

If you still confused about Luth's story, I'm already post my explanation in page 6.
Not all kind of homosexual or gay activities to be considered as lewdness.

Yes,If the debate only based on emotions and baseless assumption, there will be NO CLEAR ENDING.

My conclusion is:

- Not all homosexual categoried as lewdness, it's depend on situation n circumstances.
- If Allah punish the gay, then why Allah created some male with female hormon levels.
- In 7:80 Luth stated that Sodom did fahissya which never did by any humans before.This means fahissya is not homosexuality, because the homosexs already happened before Luth era, read in :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_history

Salaam

Thanks for replying.

If same sex marriages were fine then why would the required "man and woman" even be specified within the Quran. Surely it would've been given a less specific meaning then, right?
I'm aware fahissha means "indecent act/s" and not "homosexuality" specifically. The "indecent act/s" the people of Lot were committing may very well have been a sum total of several acts (it's not just mere lewdness but "lewdness *to such an extent/in a way* none has been committed before") However, the line right after it seems to highlight very explicitly that men coming at other men with desire is a transgression. So homosexuality in particular seems like a particularly 'serious' type of lewdness, atleast that's what I'm getting from these verses.

The rest of your "conclusion" is interesting though. I'm no scientist but do know that the "born gay" thing is something that is still contested and that the legendary "gay gene" has yet to be found, though even if it does, that alone doesn't really change my view (I touched upon this earlier when I mentioned people are sometimes born with pedophiliac tendencies, I think you replied by saying that being born gay can't be compared to pedo tendencies - which wasn't my intention at all, my point was that as far as I can tell while there may be tendencies instilled in us there is behaviour and qualities to aspire to that can be taught, these things eventually overriding the tendencies. If that makes sense) This is a topic I feel everyone will have to look into further eventually, my own thoughs on this definitely aren't 100% concrete yet.

Reee

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2013, 01:29:57 PM »
Salam,
just some points hat came into my mind:
-What is the problem with homosexuality? Is it the act of it, or the absense of the heterosexual act? The danger for the survival of the humans lies in the absense of the heterosexual act, not in the presense of the homosexual act.
If this is the case, should gays and lesbians be forced to have sex with the opposite sex? What about 30:21: It is among His signs that he created spouses for you out of yourselves that you rest wih them and put love and grace among you.
Should this not be valid for all people?
- What about people who can't have children for other reasons, e.g. infertility, accidents, they are too old. Should they be allowed to marry or not?
- The story of Onan in the Bible/Tora: he is condemned not because he satisfied himself, but because he refused to give his semen to the woman he was given to. I think this could be transferred to the Lot case: It is the refusal of duties which is condemned. And in the case of homoseuality in general: the question is not whether one is gay by birth or by choice, but whether this is an act out of willing disobedience to God's laws or just a search for the peace and calmness promised by God.
الله اكبر من الاديان

Earthdom

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2013, 08:36:14 PM »
Should I quote Hindu and Buddhist scriptures also if you still dont believe?!

Peace Sonny.
Don'bother to do it, I'm already read it from the Quran and Old Testament.
Like Emil says,your biggest fault is you intepreting Quran just in literally/harrafiyah way and you only depending on translation without realizing if all translation is NOT PERFECT.

example:
-2:54. "....so repent to your Maker,and kill yourselves...."
 It's bad idea if you tafseer "kill yourself" literally.

-2:191. " And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you"
  If you tafseer it literally, then you will became a worst murderer  ;)

My intepreation of Luth stories already written in page 6, so re read again.

Let's assume 90%+ of Islamic clerics hold the view that homosexuality is forbidden (it's far higher than that). So, it follows, the probability of homosexuality being permitted in Islam is 10/100 or 10%.

If only 10%, then why you following Quran alone, since it's only 10% too :D
This means you still follow traditional (Sunni-Shia teaching)

Do you think the majority always true:
5:49 ".....and many of the naas/humans are wicked/fasiq.

Now we know that Islam is one of the religions from Abrahamic lineage. As you pointed out, Bible unequivocally says homosexuality is forbidden. Torah says: "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a תועבה toeba "abomination")" (Leviticus 18:22).

You accept Islam, but still use that Book as  source of fiqh.

What is the probability of the two other Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Judaism, ALSO permitting homosexuality? If we calculate the overall probability that homosexuality is permitted... assuming only 10% of the religious clerics permit homosexuality in each religion, it comes to 0.001 or 0.1%!

Because the 10% is the church which understand science.(read about Episcopal dan Presbyterian).
The Vatican also rumored to legalize homoseks.

I'm aware fahissha means "indecent act/s" and not "homosexuality" specifically. The "indecent act/s" the people of Lot were committing may very well have been a sum total of several acts (it's not just mere lewdness but "lewdness *to such an extent/in a way* none has been committed before") However, the line right after it seems to highlight very explicitly that men coming at other men with desire is a transgression. So homosexuality in particular seems like a particularly 'serious' type of lewdness, atleast that's what I'm getting from these verses.

In 7:80, Luth stated the fahissha commited by Sodom is never commited by any people before.This means that fahissha is not homosexs, cause homoseks already happens before Luth's era.

The born gay is already proved by an psycollogist in my country.
Read in :http://gayvision.blog.com/2010/01/30/apakah-gay-bisa-sembuh/
(Google translate it because it's in Indonesian)



Sonny

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #104 on: May 23, 2013, 12:11:42 AM »
The Vatican also rumored to legalize homoseks.

Vatican is destroying christianity same as Wahhabism destroying Islam in the Middle East. I mean obelisk in the vatican representing erected penis of egyptian pagan god osiris, and they put cross on the top. Vatican, Wahhabism etc. those stuff has nothing to do with abrahamic religions.

After reading your and some other comments I'm sure that we live in end time's. People who call themself muslims and support satanism like homosexuality are destroying religion that prophets risk their life or died for.
You guys compare Islam to Alistair Crowley Thelema satanic religion which also support homosexuality, sad really sad. I suggest you to convert to his religion if u like and support homosexuals so much.

And dont tell me again that gays are born gay, this is BS made up by zionist media to destroy traditional family and moral values of the people.

Anyone who says that gays are "born gay" directly insults God and His creation. If God really create gay people He would tell us in the scripture. Btw "born gay" is a satanic myth. Everyone who study this will see.

Emil

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2013, 12:26:22 AM »
You raise a very important point.

Let's assume 90%+ of Islamic clerics hold the view that homosexuality is forbidden (it's far higher than that). So, it follows, the probability of homosexuality being permitted in Islam is 10/100 or 10%.

Now we know that Islam is one of the religions from Abrahamic lineage. As you pointed out, Bible unequivocally says homosexuality is forbidden. Torah says: "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a תועבה toeba "abomination")" (Leviticus 18:22).

What is the probability of the two other Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Judaism, ALSO permitting homosexuality? If we calculate the overall probability that homosexuality is permitted... assuming only 10% of the religious clerics permit homosexuality in each religion, it comes to 0.001 or 0.1%!

Salam Solomon

Assumption is the mother of all *censored*

The interesting point is that instead of analysing the Quran brother Sonny is now bringing in other scripture to justify his opinion. Scriptures that seem to be ok with drinking alcohol, incest and the stoning of rape victims. I am sorry my brothers and sisters of the christian and jewish faith, I hold the testaments at a lower level than hadith, they have absolutely no divine authority at all.

Is this how the muslim anti-gay movement works? that when the Quranic "ammo" runs out they bring in "evidence" from other scriptures?

Still waiting for anyone to disagree with me that the story of Lot is allegorical, that it doesnt include homosexuality but a reference to men seeking men in lust, that there are numerous behaviours that makes Allah destroy communities, behaviours that are practiced today in muslim communities and the fact that Allah tells prophet Muhammed, "our" prophet, to forgive and ignore if he should ever encounter a community such as Lot's or Noah's

The_Chimp

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #106 on: May 23, 2013, 12:59:09 AM »
Quote
Still waiting for anyone to disagree with me that the story of Lot is allegorical, that it doesnt include homosexuality but a reference to men seeking men in lust, that there are numerous behaviours that makes Allah destroy communities, behaviours that are practiced today in muslim communities and the fact that Allah tells prophet Muhammed, "our" prophet, to forgive and ignore if he should ever encounter a community such as Lot's or Noah's

Hi,

I disagree with you. Story of Lot is not allegorical. I have read your past posts, however, your reasons why you think this story is allegorical are not clear.

supportpeacenotwar

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2013, 01:37:04 AM »
Salam

That is very interesting indeed........really interesting.

I come from a country known to "be the least religious in the world". We dance around huge fallos symbols and we still celebrate the winter solstice (although no more human sacrificies). When somebody asks me (and strangely I have been asked numerous times) what is the most muslim country I always answer "my country". They normally look at me strangely but I find it to be true. The first time I read the Quran I was not very close to Allah, wouldnt call myself and atheist but I was closer to that than being a believer.........Anyways time and again I was flabbergasted about the similiraties in the Quran and the laws of my country.
What I am trying to say is that I may have been one of those "pagans" you talk about. I came out of the closet though and proclaimed to be a muslim.....

Salaam Emil,

I actually once was practicing more Pagan/new age religions once, when I was a teenager, so I too was labelled in such a way. I've come across some of the emphasis on the feminine in Pagan practices because of the notion that faiths like Islam can lack it, and I too once felt a little bit like that. Such as the emphasis on He for God, but now I understand that Allah means the Deity, that is not male or female, or masculine or feminine and is instead the Creator of the genderless and the things with gender. The attributes of Allah swt as well are sometimes translated in more masculine terms probably because of a traditionalist mindset, but when you look at them in practice in the Quran, of course there is nothing about masculinity there at all. Just like Allah's attribute an-Nur, the Light, the described as a Light like no other. I find there are some Quranic aspects to Western nations, although I would add that the underlying goals of all countries and pursuit of modern warfare are completely outside the Quran. Although that is the state and government, and can be equally described for all nations, not the people.

In terms of things like seasonal festivals, if we understand it to be appreciating nature and what our Creator has bestowed upon us, I think it makes sense to celebrate and appreciate the season etc as Muslims. Appreciating the natural world and order seems to be part of being a Muslim to me. After all, the rest of creation around us is aligned and in submission to our Creator's design and will. So we are essentially joining them, when we too align ourselves with our Creator's guidance and so on.
The above post may no longer represent my beliefs based on evidence and considering such topics further.
I no longer follow a "Quran only" approach.
I would simply say I follow Islam.

Man of Faith

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2013, 02:13:22 AM »
Peace supportpeacenotwar,

I know it is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to reply to your post about God as masculine.

It is a difficult question, because in English you have seperate pronouns for male and female, and also it. But since "it" seems a bit disrespectful it falls back on he or she. Sadly, we tend to use "he" for God for various reasons. In that regard Arabic and languages like Persian (Farsi) have an easier time since he and she has the same word (hence why my Iranian students have difficulties with he and she).

I hope you are not offended when I use He for God, I would love a gender-neutral word, but when I use He I do not claim that God is a male. I think about this quite much but I see no easy solution unless you change the English language or simply refrain from using words with masculine connotation.

God bless you
Website reference: http://iamthatiam.boards.net

supportpeacenotwar

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Re: Gay Marriage Has Been Legalized in France
« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2013, 02:48:16 AM »
Peace supportpeacenotwar,

I know it is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to reply to your post about God as masculine.

It is a difficult question, because in English you have seperate pronouns for male and female, and also it. But since "it" seems a bit disrespectful it falls back on he or she. Sadly, we tend to use "he" for God for various reasons. In that regard Arabic and languages like Persian (Farsi) have an easier time since he and she has the same word (hence why my Iranian students have difficulties with he and she).

I hope you are not offended when I use He for God, I would love a gender-neutral word, but when I use He I do not claim that God is a male. I think about this quite much but I see no easy solution unless you change the English language or simply refrain from using words with masculine connotation.

God bless you

Peace Man of Faith,

I use He too, when referring to God, so no I am not offended. You are simply doing what is most natural and conventional in English, like you said other languages have different conventions. But thank you for your thoughtfulness.
The above post may no longer represent my beliefs based on evidence and considering such topics further.
I no longer follow a "Quran only" approach.
I would simply say I follow Islam.