Author Topic: I find hypocracy amongst us  (Read 3351 times)

Emil

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2013, 03:12:13 AM »
It also depends on your definiton of a muslim,
If it is following the Quran, then definitely Abraham, Jesus, Mohammad's mom and dad CANNOT be a muslim
Since Quran does not exist during their time.

For the sake of argument, yes you are right.

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What is Islam? is it somekind of a Church? or a group of men or women?
Thus a marriage has to be reckoned by them?

Islam is derived from the word of God, the Quran. In it there is guidance to your individual path as well as the guidelines to the perfect Ummah. Since marriage is not for the individual but for society it must follow some kind of norm.
In the Ummah described by the Quran all are welcome, not only muslims. But you do (if you are not a muslim) need to recognise the authority and it says you must fulfil certain obligations and oaths in order for your marriage to be recognised as binding according to the rules of the Ummah. If you do accept the obligations you will have to accept the definition of what would be considered a breach of the obligations.
If you accept the rules of marriage set down by the Ummah it has an obligation towards you. For example if you should pass (if you are a man) the Ummah has the obligation to take care of your widow and children.

If you choose to not accept the rules of obligation you are free to get married, but your marriage will not be considered valid and you will not enjoy the protection the Ummah is obliged to give those who are married by the rules set down in the Quran.

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See above, and what is a 'non-muslim'?
Somebody who is 'them' and not 'us'?


In this instance I mean it is a person that do not believe the Quran can be used for your individual path towards Allah.

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From the looks of things definitely I can say Muhammad is a secular, Jesus is a secular, Abraham is a secular
They're not RELIGIOUS...
That's why they can easily be accepted by people from multiple RELIGION or SECT or Culture.
And they do try to break the cultural barrier between those differing RELIGION, SECT, CULT and TRIBES.

For Jesus case I can mentioned his story of 'good samaritan' parable.. which shows just that..

You don't have to believe in God in order to believe in the Quran.

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And there are no such thing as 'perfect society' (Ummah), the society need to adapt constantly to the changing condition and environment.
Or put it in other word the so-called 'perfect society' might varied among different time and places.

Do I look like a sunni to you?  :) Of course the Ummah must be highly adaptive and dynamic, otherwise it will not be a perfect Ummah. Once a society becomes stagnatic it will start to die. I have made serious attempts at trying to make the Ummah described by the Quran to not work in the cultures where I have either worked or lived and I have not succeeded. The Quran describes the moral foundation of almost every society. Solidarity, respect, freedom of speech etc etc....Even communism recognises many of lead words.

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For example; Marriage system (as commonly reckoned by us) might not work for the Mosuo society.. if somebody insist on implementing as such to them it might yield bad result.

Who says they should follow "our" marriage system? Does the Quran ask you to preach and convert? If the Mosuo society wants to join the Ummah described by the Quran they must follow the rules of the Ummah. They don't need to believe in God, but they must believe in the society.
If they don't ask to be part of the Ummah and do not ask to be "protected" by the Ummah, why should we think that is a problem?

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Which brings back the MILLION DOLLAR question:
1. WHY PEOPLE INVENTED MARRIAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

It may have been invented by people but it is approved by Allah.

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Another take away from this is:
What is being recorded in the Quran might not be universally applicable.
Some of them might while some others does not, some of them might be only applicable and best suited to the context of the Quran.
Which is 7th century Kanaan/Arabia.

I disagree completely. If there is a will there is a way. If the (for example) Mouso society wants to follow the Quran they can follow the Quran, it is not impossible for a society to change direction. We see it all the time. I am not saying they should magically start believing in God, but the society described by God can be populated by anyone who believes it is a good society to live in.
When I read the Quran the first time I knew absolutely nothing about Islam. I didnt even know it was 600 years younger than christianity. But still I found myself finding parts which could be directly transferred to the society I live in today. If it wasnt for the old language and the reference to God all the time I would have mistaken the Quran for a social-democratic manifesto.

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And it takes WISDOM to differentiate and understand those
Blindly following a book (Quran, Bible, US Constitution or any other book) will not resulted in good things..

I agree completely. It is easier to be blind and to find the balance between all aspects is the difficult part. God actually describes this in a way in surah 90. The path of God is the one that includes struggle and hardship.
Salam / Peace
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supportpeacenotwar

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2013, 05:41:32 PM »
Peace Emil,

Too true. There's hypocrisy amongst some people in all groups and Quran only is no different.
The above post may no longer represent my beliefs based on evidence and considering such topics further.
I no longer follow a "Quran only" approach.
I would simply say I follow Islam.

mmmm

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2013, 06:02:29 AM »
Obviously atheists understand things better than some people around here...:(

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=1t6j50Tkwy0

Earthdom

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2013, 07:51:05 AM »
Peace all.

That people is not hypocrite I think, but a Quran Aloner who still cannot fully trashing their dogmatic teaching from their minds.

The example is me, I was former Sunni and faithful even became a member of one of the Islamic organization.In the first time for being Quran Alone, my mindset still under traditional teaching.

But after time to time, Alhamdulillah I capable remove my traditional mindset.So this means, the former traditionalist who became Quran Alone learning step by step and cannot easily remove the dogmas from their brain so easily.

mmmm

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2013, 08:13:04 AM »
there is no need to say that eating rock or mud is forbidden is there? but if you're brainwashed by your surroundings then...you might be confused.

mmmm

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2013, 08:22:25 AM »
Emil,
Hey you forgot the zoophilia, and pedophilia...
once those become  socially acceptable will you be asking similar questions????

mmmm

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2013, 08:47:49 AM »
Maybe you never heard of 2:222, 223?

supportpeacenotwar

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2013, 08:54:07 AM »
Peace everyone,

I agree with the title of this thread - because the Quran verifies that some say the right things but don't follow through - knowingly doing wrong etc. In terms of the actual content of this thread, I don't agree because the Quran does not allow rape for example but does not say it in a 'typical' manner.

As I've said before as well, a non-Muslim can say and sometimes do say that the Quran doesn't tell people to follow hadith and the problems with the hadith. But following guidance is something altogether different and whatever label you call yourself, you can be following guidance or saying you've found the truth but not following the central premise at all.
The above post may no longer represent my beliefs based on evidence and considering such topics further.
I no longer follow a "Quran only" approach.
I would simply say I follow Islam.

wrkmmn

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2013, 10:50:54 AM »
peace:

this guy Emil does not proves that the majority of Muslims are hypocrite, but certainly has prove that the so called Quranaloners are not only hypocrite, but many of them also Kufar(unbelievers), for they have not posted a single verse of the Quran in their conjectures. Not only that, but that most of them are eager to listen to conjecture, as students to their master, and also support it with their own conjecture. For those who are like sheep, and cannot reason much, I recommend you to stay with the traditional ways, or these innovators will turn you into perverted uncontrollable pigs.

Note: if you do not understand anything, do not worry, for:  as for the sinners, the quran remains a closed book.

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1) Show me in the Quran where man/woman, woman/man anal sex is forbidden 2)Show me in the Quran where oral sex is forbidden 3) Show me in the Quran where any kind of heterosexual preferences (S/M, sex toys, positions, dominance, etc etc) is forbidden
The mouth is for eating, the anus for excreting excrement, and toys, well, those are for people with uncontrollable sexual appetites. Parts of the body should be used only for what God intended them to be used. All this perversion is done by people who God has turned into uncontrollable pigs that made their whole existence turn around sex. Don?t worry, I am not trying to change your perverted mind. 4:88...Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].

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5) Show me in the Quran where the legal age of marriage (a number please) is stipulated
What does The Quran say on the age of marriage?The Quran does not state a specific legal age of marriage, however it does give a guideline and mentions situations and conditions that should be considered before marriage:
?   Determining mutual attraction/compatibility [2:221, 2:235, 30:21, 33:52]
?   Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith [2:221, 60:10]
?   Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any) [4:4, 4:24]
?   Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract [4:21, 2:232, 2:237, 24:33]
?   If male, capable of providing for the family/household [2:228, 2:233, 4:34, 65:6]
?   To have physically matured / post-puberty [4:6, 24:31, 24:58-59]

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6) Show me in the Quran where it says a marriage must be done in the mosque/imam present.
It is better to do it in the mosque in front of the whole community: 58:10 [All other kinds of] secret confabulations are but of Satan's doing, .....[5:5] ??.. You shall maintain CHASTITY, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers. (39:17).....My servants (39:18) who listen [closely] to all that is said, and follow the best of it: [for] it is they whom God has graced with His guidance, and it is they who are [truly] endowed with insight!

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I challenge you to prove by using hard fact that the story of LOT and his people is real and should not be considered allegorical.
11:78 Said [Lot]: "O my people! [Take instead] these daughters of mine: they are purer for you [than men]!  Be, then, conscious of God, and disgrace me not by [assaulting] my guests. Is there not among you even one right-minded man?" 11:79They answered: "Thou hast always known that we have no use whatever for thy daughters; and, verily, well dost thou know what we want! 40:4 NONE BUT THOSE who are bent on denying the truth would call God's messages in question...

 
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I challenge you to give me a list of what is considered "lewd" as per Quranic interpretation. I challenge you to show me where female homosexuality is forbidden.
4:136 O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.
4:26 God wants to make [all this] clear unto you, and to guide you onto the [righteous] ways of life of those who preceded you....33:35.....and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remember God unceasingly: for (all of] them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward. 33:36......it is not for a believing man or a believing woman to claim freedom of choice insofar as they themselves are concerned: for he who [thus] rebels against God and His Apostle has already, most obviously, gone astray.


Leviticus 18:22-23 ??Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Romans 1:21-27 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God....24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie.......26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.



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The rules regarding sexuality cannot be specified.
2:222...... go in unto them as God has bidden you to do." .....  and He loves those who keep themselves pure. 45:23 HAST THOU ever considered [the kind of man) who makes his own desires his deity, and whom God has [thereupon] let go astray, knowing [that his mind is closed to all guidance],24 and whose hearing and heart He has sealed, and upon whose sight He has placed a veil?25 Who, then, could guide him after God [has abandoned him]? Will you not, then, bethink yourselves? 4:26 God wants to make [all this] clear unto you, and to guide you onto the [righteous] ways of life of those who preceded you,35 and to turn unto you in His mercy: for God is all-knowing, wise.

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1)We can never say that our neigbour's sexual preference is according to Islam or not. What moral guidance belongs to him, not me.
21:74 And to Lot We gave judgement and knowledge, and We saved him from the city that was committing wicked deeds. Indeed, they were a people of evil, defiantly disobedient. (11:78) And his people came running to him, impelled towards his house [by their desire]:  for they had ever been wont to commit [such], abominations. Said [Lot]: "O my people! [Take instead] these daughters of mine: they are purer for you [than men]!  Be, then, conscious of God, and disgrace me not by [assaulting] my guests. Is there not among you even one right-minded man?" 11:79They answered: "Thou hast always known that we have no use whatever for thy daughters; and, verily, well dost thou know what we want!" (11:80) Exclaimed [Lot]: "Would that I had the strength to defeat you, or that I could lean upon some mightier support!"
(4:27) And God wants to turn unto you in His mercy, whereas those who follow [only] their
own lusts want you to drift far away from the right path. 45:23 HAST THOU ever considered [the kind of man) who makes his own desires his deity, and whom God has [thereupon] let go astray, knowing [that his mind is closed to all guidance],24 and whose hearing and heart He has sealed, and upon whose sight He has placed a veil?25 Who, then, could guide him after God [has abandoned him]? Will you not, then, bethink yourselves? 4:26 God wants to make [all this] clear unto you, and to guide you onto the [righteous] ways of life of those who preceded you,35 and to turn unto you in His mercy: for God is all-knowing, wise.
5:77Say, "O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way."


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2) We have warnings, but they are just that and not rules.
if a warning is not enough for you:
7:165 When they disregarded the warnings that had been given them, We rescued those who forbade Evil; but We visited the wrong-doers with a grievous punishment because they were given to transgression.18:2 [He has made it] straight, to warn of severe punishment from Him and to give good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a good reward 54:36And (Lut) did warn them of Our Punishment, but they disputed about the Warning. 67:17Or are you secure of those in the heaven that He should not send down upon you a punishment? Then shall you know how was My warning. 2:211 ....And whoever exchanges the favor of Allah [for disbelief] after it has come to him - then indeed, Allah is severe in punishment. 54:33 The people of Lot denied the warning.
If you were believers you would know that there are hundreds more like these. Only one who do not reason would think, if his father says: ?I warn you, just as your brother, if you go out during the night I will beat you,? that he can go out because his father neither said yes nor no. How is it that you reason, and how deluded is your mind.

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3) We cannot judge our neigbour according to his preference, only by his oppressive actions.
5:49 Hence, judge between them  in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high, and do not follow their errant views; and beware of them, lest they tempt thee away from aught that God has bestowed from on high upon thee. And if they turn away [from His commandments], then know that it is but God's will [thus] to afflict them for some of their sins:70 for, behold, a great many people are iniquitous indeed. (5:50) Do they, perchance, desire [to be ruled by] the law of pagan ignorance?71 But for people who have inner certainty, who could be a better law-giver than God? (4:120) he (satan) holds out promises to them, and fills them with vain desires: yet  whatever Satan promises them is but meant to delude the mind.142 (4:121)) Such as these have hell for their goal: and they shall find no way to escape therefrom.

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Adultery carries a punishment. The act of adultery is punished, not the sexual preference of the parties involved.
(4:16) And punish both of the guilty parties;13 but if they both repent and mend their ways, leave them alone: for, behold, God is an acceptor of repentance, a dispenser of grace.
4:26 God wants to make [all this] clear unto you, and to guide you onto the [righteous] ways of life of those who preceded you....
Leviticus 18:22-23 ??Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Romans 1:21-27 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God....24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie.......26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.


I bet many did not understand anything, but do not worry for:17:84 Say: "Everyone acts in a manner peculiar to himself - and your Sustainer is fully aware as to who has chosen the best path."

May God increase our wisdom.

wrkmmn

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Re: I find hypocracy amongst us
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2013, 11:30:49 AM »
peace:

believers are: Clean, pure, chaste, virtuous, strong, fearful of God for anything they do, always conscious of God, righteous, truthful, always enjoining each other the doing of what is right and forbidding wrong, never listen to falsehood, always follow the best of things, worried more about the next life than about this one, they are the best of creatures, etc. To them belong the best attributes of human beings.

unbelievers are
: unclean, inpure, fornicators, perverted, weak, do not fear God, never mindful of God, lairs, deceivers, cheaters, misleaders, falsifiers, perjurer, pigs, monkeys, eager to listen to falsehood, the worst of all creatures, always following their  own desires, lost in their own lust, lewd, etc. To them belong the worse attributes of human beings.


I hope this brief descriptions helps understand in which side are each of us.

may God increase our wisdom.