I find hypocracy amongst us

[Emil]

Salam all my brothers and sisters

I find this hypocracy amongst us....

I noticed it long ago, first I found it a little amusing, later interesting and now I find it annoying.

Whenever we challenge the ritual/traditional part of Islam (the part which some of you have broken free from) many of us ask "show me where it is written in the Quran". The challenged party normally responds "It is not in the Quran, it is in the hadith/sunnah of prophet Muhammed". Normally we respond by saying "Aha! so it is not the word of Allah! It is not from a trustworthy source"

And usually we say that we should not make something haram if it is not clearly stipulated in the Quran. To me (and probably many others) this means it has to say in the Quran "thou shalt not". Pork for example, not any question about it...It clearly says "no"

The hypocracy I find is that whenever a topic is opened regarding the most loved subject there is a storm of opiniated views and our "golden rule" of "do not haram if it doesnt say haram"  is thrown out the window. What subject am I talking about  SEXUALITY 

Anal sex is lewd!
Oral sex is lewd!
Homosexuality is HARAM!

Blablablablabla........

So my dear brothers and sisters, I am going to challenge you with a couple of questions and statements. Before I proceed I want to point out that I am a very shy and conservative man and my questions and statements are not a reflection of what I like......If you want to find out about my sexuality you have to marry me because I only share my likes/dislikes with the one "affected".
The reason why I am doing this is I find myself very alone in my belief that eventhough I am not a fan of whatever I cannot use the word of Allah to justify my feelings. I must face the cold hard truth that Allah allows more than what I allow, he is more forgiving, liberal and understanding than I...........And also I sometimes feel wrongly categorised as a pornstar wannabe.....

1) Show me in the Quran where man/woman, woman/man anal sex is forbidden
2) Show me in the Quran where oral sex is forbidden
3) Show me in the Quran where any kind of heterosexual preferences (S/M, sex toys, positions, dominance, etc etc) is forbidden
4) Show me in the Quran where chastity in a relationship is forbidden
5) Show me in the Quran where the legal age of marriage (a number please) is stipulated
6) Show me in the Quran where it says a marriage must be done in the mosque/imam present.
7) Show me in the Quran where it says sex between one man and 1,2,3 or 4 wives simutaneously is not allowed.
I challenge you to prove by using hard fact that the story of LOT and his people is real and should not be considered allegorical.
9) I challenge you to give me a list of what is considered "lewd" as per Quranic interpretation.
10) I challenge you to show me where female homosexuality is forbidden.

A very long list..........If you do not care to answer, then consider this:

The rules regarding sexuality cannot be specified. It is not supposed to be specified because:

If we are to follow the Quran we have to come to the (horrible) conclusion that with regards to sexuality we have only our own moral values to lean against and those rules vary based on the individual. If I feel that the moral value described in the Quran does not allow me to engage in a specific sexual activity, then that is my guidance only. It belongs to me, not anyone else.

1)We can never say that our neigbour's sexual preference is according to Islam or not. What moral guidance belongs to him, not me.

We must remember the power of sex, it may take over our lives (story of Lot).

2) We have warnings, but they are just that and not rules.

We have strict rules when our sexuality affects another person. Adultery, rape, bestiality etc has a victim. By default there is an oppressor and this is not allowed according to Islam. We can protect the innocent if our neigbour sexual preference is oppressive in nature,

3) We cannot judge our neigbour according to his preference, only by his oppressive actions

Adultery carries a punishment. The act of adultery is punished, not the sexual preference of the parties involved


1) Show me in the Quran where man/woman, woman/man anal sex is forbidden
Answ: If you feel it goes against righteousness and modesty it is forbidden for you. If you force somenone to engage or NOT engage it is clearly haram

2) Show me in the Quran where oral sex is forbidden
Answ: If you feel it goes against righteousness and modesty it is forbidden for you. If you force somenone to engage or NOT engage it is clearly haram

3) Show me in the Quran where any kind of heterosexual preferences (S/M, sex toys, positions, dominance, etc etc) is forbidden
Answ: If you feel it goes against righteousness and modesty it is forbidden for you. If you force somenone to engage or NOT engage it is clearly haram

4) Show me in the Quran where chastity in a relationship is forbidden
Answ: It is not forbidden. A man (or woman) can never claim they have the right to sex

5) Show me in the Quran where the legal age of marriage (a number please) is stipulated
Answ: It is not stipulated. There are certain criteria in the Quran that should be fulfilled. As long as the society recognises the criteria and follow them it is up to them to decide the number of years a person must be alive before marrying.

6) Show me in the Quran where it says a marriage must be done in the mosque/imam present.
Answ: There is no such rule. A christian (or any other type) marriage is just as recognisable as a muslim as long as they fulfil the same oaths as specified by the Quran.

7) Show me in the Quran where it says sex with one man and 1,2,3 or 4 wives simutaneously is not allowed.
Answ: If you feel it goes against righteousness and modesty it is forbidden for you. If you force somenone to engage or NOT engage it is clearly haram

Show me in the Quran where female homosexuality is forbidden
Answ: None to be found. However, if you feel it goes against righteousness and modesty it is forbidden for you. If you force somenone to engage or NOT engage it is clearly haram

9) I challenge you to prove by using hard fact that the story of LOT and his people is real and should not be considered allegorical.
Answ: None to be found

10) I challenge you to give me a list of what is considered "lewd" as per Quranic interpretation.
Answ: Everything is lewd if you feel it is lewd. Nothing is lewd if you do not feel it is lewd................except prostitution

[spodacus]

Salam, would like to know your understanding of 79:40 with respect to this topic?

79:40 And as for he who feared the station of his Lord, and prohibited the self from desire.
79:41 The Paradise will be the abode.

[huruf]

You speak about having sex with several wives simultaneously. Why that limitation?:

Show me, Emil, where the Qur'an forbids poliandry.

Salaam

[Emil]

Salam Spodacus

Salam, would like to know your understanding of 79:40 with respect to this topic?

79:40 And as for he who feared the station of his Lord, and prohibited the self from desire.
79:41 The Paradise will be the abode.

Surah 79 is the story of when Moses tried to convince the Pharaoh to believe in Allah and to let Moses people become free from slavery. The Pharaoh considered himself to be Allah and challenged Moses to show his God to him. Of course God did not appear but sent plagues to the country. I think in the end the Pharaohs son died.........Don't know the testaments that well.

Anyways "desire" can have a multitude of meanings. To find the desire surah 79 is specified to a single meaning we have to ask someone who speaks arabic well. But to make the assumption to say it is only directed towards staying chaste is misleading because the story of Moses and Pharaoh had nothing to do with that kind of desire and there is contrary evidence that we should strive for chastity (one example is 2:223)

Salam Huruf

You speak about having sex with several wives simultaneously. Why that limitation?:

Show me, Emil, where the Qur'an forbids poliandry.

Salaam

If we can agree if polyandry is allowed we can discuss if the woman is allowed to sleep with more than one husband at a time.

The reason for me to ask this in the first place was to act as an "eye opener". I have never heard of anyone condoning this kind of relationship because it has never entered peoples minds before (well maybe some, me included). If ever made, the list of lewdness/haram behaviour will never be complete. There is no way that the person(s) undertaking the task of producing the list can have knowledge of all in the entire world. Not saying that I practice them, but I can google and there are millions of acts that would make the haram list.

[Zulf]

Interesting post!

It is indeed important to know oneself... to understand why we believe what we believe and how the mind/brain works in this regard.
If we don't begin to understand ourselves, we won't be able to understand others... and we know what that will result in...

"Know thyself!"

Peace and kind regards

[GODsubmitter]

I think that we are all full of "data" in our subconscious memory that is "playing" like a CD-disk all the time inside us, and most of those data is erroneous and obsolete, or just unnecessary.

We should take the responsibility for all the programming we ever received and ask God to for forgiveness for everything that is in us, and then be willing to "let go" and allow God to erase everything that is not blessed for us, and pray to God to take charge and guide us to the Right Path.

Piece begins with me.

Praise be to God in eternity!

[Jafar]

All people are naturally hypocrites, they always see things from their own point of view.

I agree to some of the things that you said, however have you considered a case where

THERE'S NO MARRIAGE

in that case

WILL THERE BE SUCH THING AS ADULTERY??

and

WHAT WILL HAPPENED WHEN EVERYONE IS WHORE AND ADULTERER?
(since there's no marriage)

I'm not proposing a 'hypothetical' situation, because such thing DOES EXIST FOR MANY CENTURIES:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoTrARDa8BU

And the evidence above shows that there's no chaos in such society or oppression..

[Emil]

All people are naturally hypocrites, they always see things from their own point of view.

I agree to some of the things that you said, however have you considered a case where

THERE'S NO MARRIAGE

in that case

WILL THERE BE SUCH THING AS ADULTERY??

and

WHAT WILL HAPPENED WHEN EVERYONE IS WHORE AND ADULTERER?
(since there's no marriage)

I'm not proposing a 'hypothetical' situation, because such thing DOES EXIST FOR MANY CENTURIES:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoTrARDa8BU

And the evidence above shows that there's no chaos in such society or oppression..

Depends on how you define marriage. And now after reading about the Mosuo people depends on who you consider to be a muslim (as in following the guidelines of the Quran). This tribe is muslim? If yes, then we have a dilemma since they are not following the Quranic guidelines at all. If no, then it is not fair to use their example as a "what if" for the muslim community.

The Quran is clear about what obligations and oaths there are when entering a partnership with another person. If this criteria is met in a Hindu, Christian, Pagan, Aetheist or any other tribal or cultural marriage then Islam should recognise the partnership as a marriage and therefore the definition of adultery will naturally be as per Islam.
If the criteria is not met then the marriage is not recognised by Islam as a proper marriage and therefore the Islamic definition of adultery will not be valid.

So if a non-muslim wants his or her marriage to be recognised by Islam, then they must recognise the rules of marriage as well as the definition of adultery. They do not have to be muslim, just follow the rules of marriage........Simple logic.

The challenge is to realize what marriage is a marriage. I do not believe in hadith as a divine source and I hate to use prophet Muhammed as an example. But I do believe the Medina period is very interesting and there are lessons to be learned about how to create the perfect Ummah. We all know prophet Muhammed was the leader of Medina. This community was multi-religious..............Please correct me if I am wrong but eventhough Medina was a community led by the prophet of Allah I find no evidence that non-muslim marriages were considered invalid. On the same time I find no evidence that people who did not recognise the rules of marriage according to Islam were punished for adultery.

[Jafar]

Depends on how you define marriage. And now after reading about the Mosuo people depends on who you consider to be a muslim (as in following the guidelines of the Quran). This tribe is muslim? If yes, then we have a dilemma since they are not following the Quranic guidelines at all. If no, then it is not fair to use their example as a "what if" for the muslim community.

It also depends on your definiton of a muslim,
If it is following the Quran, then definitely Abraham, Jesus, Mohammad's mom and dad CANNOT be a muslim
Since Quran does not exist during their time.

The Quran is clear about what obligations and oaths there are when entering a partnership with another person. If this criteria is met in a Hindu, Christian, Pagan, Aetheist or any other tribal or cultural marriage then Islam should recognise the partnership as a marriage and therefore the definition of adultery will naturally be as per Islam. If the criteria is not met then the marriage is not recognised by Islam as a proper marriage and therefore the Islamic definition of adultery will not be valid.

What is Islam? is it somekind of a Church? or a group of men or women?
Thus a marriage has to be reckoned by them?

So if a non-muslim wants his or her marriage to be recognised by Islam, then they must recognise the rules of marriage as well as the definition of adultery. They do not have to be muslim, just follow the rules of marriage........Simple logic.

See above, and what is a 'non-muslim'?
Somebody who is 'them' and not 'us'?

The challenge is to realize what marriage is a marriage. I do not believe in hadith as a divine source and I hate to use prophet Muhammed as an example. But I do believe the Medina period is very interesting and there are lessons to be learned about how to create the perfect Ummah. We all know prophet Muhammed was the leader of Medina. This community was multi-religious..............Please correct me if I am wrong but eventhough Medina was a community led by the prophet of Allah I find no evidence that non-muslim marriages were considered invalid. On the same time I find no evidence that people who did not recognise the rules of marriage according to Islam were punished for adultery.

From the looks of things definitely I can say Muhammad is a secular, Jesus is a secular, Abraham is a secular
They're not RELIGIOUS...
That's why they can easily be accepted by people from multiple RELIGION or SECT or Culture.
And they do try to break the cultural barrier between those differing RELIGION, SECT, CULT and TRIBES.

For Jesus case I can mentioned his story of 'good samaritan' parable.. which shows just that..

And there are no such thing as 'perfect society' (Ummah), the society need to adapt constantly to the changing condition and environment.
Or put it in other word the so-called 'perfect society' might varied among different time and places.

For example; Marriage system (as commonly reckoned by us) might not work for the Mosuo society.. if somebody insist on implementing as such to them it might yield bad result.

Which brings back the MILLION DOLLAR question:
1. WHY PEOPLE INVENTED MARRIAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Another take away from this is:
What is being recorded in the Quran might not be universally applicable.
Some of them might while some others does not, some of them might be only applicable and best suited to the context of the Quran.
Which is 7th century Kanaan/Arabia.

And it takes WISDOM to differentiate and understand those
Blindly following a book (Quran, Bible, US Constitution or any other book) will not resulted in good things..

Salam / Peace

[huruf]

I have been reading about this mosuo people, and what transpires is that they do have marriage, but that marriage does not entail what is taken for granted in other environments. The only thing it says is that partner can be changed at will, which is the same as provided by divorce without guilt and remarriage.

The trouble with all this is the mentality that believes that marriage consists of some approval or sanctionning of the sexual realtionship by some authority or anonimous overseer, whereas the marriage of those Mosuo is a marriage of fact. The fact that they do not share a home is neither here nor there, since they do not make a secret of who the partner is and that partner is recognized as such. Where in the honourable Qur'an does it say that the couple must live in the same house. It may be taken for granted, but it is not there. And even in muslim societies, when the married are young, they may continue to live each one with in their parants home.

Marriage in fact is sexual commitment. Those who tie it to an authority sanctionning it put the oxen before the cart. The public sanctionning comes because there is the fact, not the other way around. But since humanity has been marked by excesses in sexual treatment of women, the public sanctionning might have become the first question in order for women to have guranties before they come to the factual realations, but that is not the fundamental fact but just a way to protect her rights and person in the middle of a hostile envorinment. On the other hand it has also been a weapon of patriarchy since marriage did give authority to the husband over the wife making a minor out of her. So both ways there was interest in having a legal marriage as a different thing from the factual marriage.

Muslims, followers of the Qura'nic revelation, will have to come to grips some time with these matters. There is a statu quo which may be maintained, but will result en chaos and misery an not in a stable healthy society. Sooner or later the bull will have to be taken by the horns and house cleaning made.

What these Mosuo in fact also show is that when there is no compulsion in fact there tends to be a pure relationship of affection not bound to other interests, which is healthy.

Salaam