Koranic law versus Sharia Law - two different Islamic states

[Bigmo]

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message


4:79-80 Say: ?Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe.... Hence, we have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger, but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.


42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you , for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger,( but if you turn away , for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou loves; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner.."


As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet's limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching porn etc.

The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themselves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concern somebody else's right.

Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. Here the Koran sees adultery as affecting the other partner in a marriage. It?s a betrayal and a breaking of oath. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. It?s clear that the verse made it very difficult to implement on adultery but very easy to implement on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the prophet?s wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal.

The Koran cannot order the prophet to punish people for sins, that God's job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins.

In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the "sword verse". They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority (over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29.

However these verses were about the defensive wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came in the Quran concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile. The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers.

But the Sunnah (hadiths) claimed otherwise. The Sunnah are the oral traditions claimed by the sects to be the word and deeds of Muhammad that were compiled some two centuries after Muhammad's death. The Sects claim that Muhammad received two revelations from God, one is the Quran the other they claimed are his personal saying and actions collected by later Islamic authorities (oral traditions). The Sects believe that the Sunnah has legal authoritiy and are binding and place a Quran like role when it comes to authority if not more. Almost 90% of Sharia law comes from there. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostate. That?s why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Rather than question the hadiths (oral traditions) that claim the prophet believed he can coerce people to follow and obey him, they abrogated the verses of the Quran that contradicted those hadiths. Then they simply transferred that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr (Muhammad's companion) is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying the Zakat which is a charity prescribed in the Quran. Now this absolute authority was transferred from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implemented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching porn or not wearing proper attire. None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. The sects believe God only punishes those who did not get caught in this life and punished in this world. The sects claimed that once punished the sin falls away and disappears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this concept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God's punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina (adultery) verse in the Koran is concerning fornication and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be reciprocal and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetrators of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler. The ruler decides the fate of prisoners of war where he can free but also execute. The Sunnah elevated the authority of the rulers of Islam by elevating Muhammad's authority. Thereby creating a legal precedence.This is all very sad as the taking of someone?s life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder especially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth law (proportionate Justice) in the Koran somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw (disproportionate justice).

To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws left and abundantly especially in the middle ages. So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial and therefore they tended to avoid them.

Its very unfortunate the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed much aspect of the sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But the clerics understood that these laws were controversial as the raise the issue of whether they are in agreement with the Quran or not. Its not easy in Islam to execute outside of murder. But this wise tradition was broken. That?s very unfortunate as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control.

One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran's take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the Sunni/Shia sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that separates the Koran from the Sunnah. That?s why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink in the Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then propet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And that?s very sad.

[noshirk]

Salaam
zina is not adultery. it is defaming someone, making false accustations
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605270.0

Jizya is not a tax. it is a compulsory preach/debate for who teach false teachings about god.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606280.0

Riba is not usury. Riba is sale of teachings of God by proclaiming beeing a Rabb in deen between the only Rabb and who search for the only Rabb (riba same root as rabb).
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605358.msg335616#msg335616

Freedom in islam, no constraint in deen, implies that you can't impose law from your beliefs to unbelievers.

This implies, under classical understing, that "orthodox" understanding of Jizya, Riba, Zina should be applied only to whose believe in them, that is, followers of Rabbi Dukhani, Rabbi Muslim and so on.

Peace

[Wakas]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hasan-mahmud-sharia-law-betrays-modern-state-koran-1436855

[Mikebloke]

This is not a defence of any sect, school, nation or country but there is a importance of separating Quranic and Shariah law and why both are necessary to exist. This would present itself even in a non-denominational (in fact, likely more so) Muslim country.

This is perhaps a bit pedantic over the meaning of words, but I've always believed there to be a necessary difference between Quranic and Shariah legalism. Quranic law is largely the law of the self, except where set punishments are defined. Homosexuality and other things, such as masturbation are often given relatively harsh words, condemnations and punishments by sects despite little to no mention in Quran. In a different example, in the Charter of Medina/Medina Constitution, whatever you like to call it; the document uniting Muslims, Jews, Christians and the few pagans that hung around them the document is clearly taking into account issues that are not Quranic, and I would label this under the term Shariah law. That is, Quranic law represents a personal code for practising Muslims to live by, while Shariah law is implementation of Quranic values with accommodation not only to the personal opinions and views of varied types of Muslims but also the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims for a common goal of peace and security.

Despite the sect belief of 'Nationalism is Haram' I personally believe the concept of Ummah, and especially the revelation-era meaning including people of multiple faiths and beliefs to be the exact definition of a Nation State, just not one bound by the typical binding of ethnicities or geographical regions, although in practice it may happen to be insular in that way but not purposely, just practically.

I know quite a few people on this forum, judging from opinions I've read from their previous posts, would have issue with that, and would be quite happy never to see any form of 'shariah' law implemented at all, but as someone who has spent the majority of his life in politics, anarchism while having great importance on personal freedom is rarely a viable option, certainly not one with such large populations as most humans are settled in. Whether we like it or not, some degree of human made law will always be necessary, but the balance between power and liberties cannot be controlled if the common people refuse to engage in the system in the first place.

Words like Shariah and Islamist are currently under a black veil, they are used to define a prejudice of Muslims against others, when really it is quite the opposite.

[Affy77]

Peace Mike,

One question. If we take the definition of the word "necessary" as it is found in the dictionary  (see below). Then how can you say that some man made laws are necessary to control society? This is not at all obligatory as far as God or Quran is concernedas the defination suggest as nothing is compulsory. Without knowing it you are making unlwaful something that God may want to stay lawful. We must be careful of the "words" we use as the "words" are what we are tricked on to make us think we are doing things with the "Good" of the "people". We are not people BTW we are humans beings or beings.

Lets take basic things like politics as you suggested you have been involved in all your life. If you go into the roots of politics and democary and legal system you will quickly find that we are actually part of the biggest trick in history. Democracy and Legal system. These are not ordained by god because most of it is based on deception which is deemd bad and cannot be from God. Just saying. If we act righteous we wont need anything other than Gods Law to govern us. However, there are always "devils" around us who will not be so willing to be "righteous" and will be compelled by the evil within them to cause problems for the righteous and the Quran has plenty of Guidance to any beleiver for what to do. Also common sense should kick in which will help. Its all a condition of the mind and currently we are conditions to live in fear and need "protection" of state, legal system, governments, monarchies, religion etc etc. We actually need non of them as they are not required to for us to get through this life successfully. Hope i am making sense. Anyway just my 2 pence worth. 

necessary
ˈnɛsəs(ə)ri/
adjective
adjective: necessary

    1.
    needed to be done, achieved, or present; essential.
    "they granted the necessary planning permission"
    synonyms:   obligatory, requisite, required, compulsory, mandatory, imperative, demanded, needed, called for, needful; More
    essential, indispensable, vital, of the essence, incumbent;
    de rigueur
    "planning permission is necessary"
    antonyms:   unnecessary, non-essential, dispensable
    2.
    determined, existing, or happening by natural laws or predestination; inevitable.
    "a necessary consequence"
    synonyms:   inevitable, unavoidable, certain, sure, inescapable, inexorable, ineluctable, fated, destined, predetermined, predestined, preordained
    "their fate was a necessary consequence of progress"

[Mikebloke]

Salam Affy, thanks for the reply. Will do my best to respond.

Then how can you say that some man made laws are necessary to control society?

Man made interpretations will always be 'necessary' in order to cover all potential backdoors or possible differing views on interpretations, much like how we here even on this forum have different ideas on how to interpret Quranic verses despite the fact the majority of us disregard Hadith as a source. Society itself is a form of control based upon groupings of people based on at least one parameter, usually geographical and political boundaries. Even an anarchic society has to define a boundary of where anarchy ends and another begins and this is where legalism and statism begins to develop.

This is not at all obligatory as far as God or Quran is concernedas the defination suggest as nothing is compulsory.

I would choose to differ on this, although without hadith Quranic law is certainly more liberal and less encroaching there are very specific commands in regards to society, including self preservation, taxation, punishment for particular crimes.

Without knowing it you are making unlwaful something that God may want to stay lawful. We must be careful of the "words" we use as the "words" are what we are tricked on to make us think we are doing things with the "Good" of the "people". We are not people BTW we are humans beings or beings.

And hence the necessity of ensuring that matters created by man is stated as such, and not interwoven with other sources to claim its a command by God, even in regards to Quranic verses alone, I've seen many Sunni writers try to talk their way into claiming verses regarding the prophets wives is compulsory on all Women, and that is using just Quran alone. It requires an honesty on the part of the law makers and discussion with the people they serve to come up with a decent set of rules whereby the innocent and non violent in society can live reasonable lives and that those that strip away possessions and livelihoods through theft and murder can be punished. This also means setting boundaries of where this authority extends to, and servicemen to uphold it. This is no different to the time of the prophet.

Democracy and Legal system. These are not ordained by god because most of it is based on deception which is deemd bad and cannot be from God. Just saying.

Does the system of democracy and legalism form the deception or do just some of the people in charge of it do? The problem with words like democracy is that it is no guarantee of anything just, as it only merely represents the selection of the people in charge. It still requires participation from everyone when it comes to selecting their representatives. Here in the UK, we only select local representatives, and then which ever grouping (political parties now, but this is merely like minded people grouping together into formal organisations, was a time where this didn't exist) forms the majority of those representatives is normally given the right to form a Government by the Monarch, a position which is hereditary. That grouping then decides which candidate to put forward as a Prime Minister (usually the party leader, though this is not an actual requirement). That Prime Minister then selects a cabinet which heads each major department, usually people of their own political grouping. Yes this sounds complicated, and yes it may sound elitism, not everyone could become Prime Minister, but then few actually want to. Everyone in society has a position they are in, and a position they would like to be in, and nobody wants to be in the same position, we each take roles. I'm thankful to be in a country where I can openly choose such role, including politics regardless of personal background. In some countries simply being born in a family prevents you working particular jobs, marrying or having relationships with others, etc.

Also common sense should kick in which will help.

I agree common sense helps, but it doesn't do a great deal when an oppressor comes at you with a knife to rob or rape you, when there is no society to even punish the oppressor after the deed is done. In anarchy, while personal freedom is established as an (or rather the only) inalienable right, there is no system in place to protect that right as a police force or justice system is seen as part of Government and melding in person affairs. Instead victims are left to get revenge themselves, and this is the sort of thing that starts blood feuds - something that was prevalent in Arab society before the appearance of the last prophet.

We actually need non of them as they are not required to for us to get through this life successfully. Hope i am making sense.

Unfortunately the moment three people get together it does become necessary, because of disagreements on right or wrong. Two people might be able to make it, but after that, chaos.

[Affy77]

Hi Mike, Peace.

I will try and rationalise what you have said. But i think we are on different wave lengths.

Man made interpretations will always be 'necessary' in order to cover all potential backdoors or possible differing views on interpretations, much like how we here even on this forum have different ideas on how to interpret Quranic verses despite the fact the majority of us disregard Hadith as a source. Society itself is a form of control based upon groupings of people based on at least one parameter, usually geographical and political boundaries. Even an anarchic society has to define a boundary of where anarchy ends and another begins and this is where legalism and statism begins to develop.

I already gave my opinion on the word "necessary" and what it means. Of course we can interpret in the way we see it and understand it but that is seperate to LAW, establishing that law and how God wants us to live and conduct HIS business (Yes his not ours as we own nothing. God owns it all including us) Law is absolute and cannot be changed or ammended that is the definition of LAW. Defining the boundaries of a law is not our job.  YOU WILL NOT STEAL MEANS YOU WILL NOT STEAL THERE IS NO BOUNDARY TO BE SET ON THAT. You will not kill unless in self defense is a law no boundary there. What about, you will make a will before you die? Recommended if you beleive and if you beleive then you will do it but its not punishable or forceable, but not doing it will only harm you and your loved ones. Witnesses are always required who can also become laible/accountable if they falsely testify but all of this works only IF you beleive. We are the servants and we have a master and law maker. God. Who's accountable? US, not democracies or the legal system! They are not living, remember we are and we gave up our freedom and made them our lords! (House of Lords - irony again) so when we are asked God already told us our lame reply. He knows everything. duh..

14:21 - When they all stand before God, the followers will say to the leaders, "We used to follow you. Can you spare us even a little bit of God's retribution?" They will say, "Had God guided us, we would have guided you. Now it is too late, whether we grieve or resort to patience, there is no exit for us."

33:36 - They will also say, "Our Lord, we have obeyed our masters and leaders, but they led us astray.

God's system is the only way to attain peace.

24:55 - God promises those among you who believe and lead a righteous life, that He will make them sovereigns on earth, as He did for those before them, and will establish for them the system He has chosen for them, and will substitute peace and security for them in place of fear. All this because they worship Me alone; they never set up any idols beside Me. Those who disbelieve after this are the truly wicked.

Unfortunatley in todays world i cannot see any human beings on earth that follow Gods system and so we are not governed by him im afraid.  I live in the UK and i am a enslaved by the legal system here like you Mike. Apprently The Monarchy was given the right to rule by God (read UK constitution, i did its shocking the stuff in there and we all signed up to it, they claim god gave them the divine right to rule - THATS A LIE)(Oh this includes the 70 odd countries in the commonwealth whos consititions are based on the UK and Queen is their ultimate ruler on paper). But it was an unjust system and people woke up to this, so the monarchs kindly passed power to the people in form of an elected government we have elected and so we are the culprits not even the Queen nor Cameron are to blame here its all us! Lol. the irony! We have chosen that ourselves by rejecting Gods Law and replacing it with our law. The people law/ Common Law. Todays law is fear based. That is a tool of Satan and in turn that makes the law makers satanic. We are the law makers in a democracy and that means we have created a dead thing which has no life.(thats part of the occult and can be defined as witchcraft or illusion - see how we have been conditioned to think of these words as meaning hocus pocus! But look up meanings on various dictionary and the illusion will go away. its clear as God said.) The concept of a state is evil. (like isis have done but the most successful (not for long) are America and the franchise of all other democratic/Kingdoms nations we all live in). Ok i've gone off on one! let me not do that and carry on with rationalising your comments. Sorry!

I would choose to differ on this, although without hadith Quranic law is certainly more liberal and less encroaching there are very specific commands in regards to society, including self preservation, taxation, punishment for particular crimes.

Why are we differing on this? its pretty clear no? see below.

Quran 2:256 - There shall be no compulsion in the system: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in God has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. God is Hearer, Omniscient.

34:25 - Say, "You are not responsible for our crimes, nor are we responsible for what you do."

To add to your point above those specific commandments about, self presevation, taxation, etc etc are guidance on how we should conduct things in the right/good way but i dont see any nations regard these do you? The whole system we live in is backed by usuary even islamic banking. Thats evil i think.

And hence the necessity of ensuring that matters created by man is stated as such, and not interwoven with other sources to claim its a command by God.

Quran 16:116 - You shall not utter lies with your own tongues stating: "This is lawful, and this is unlawful," to fabricate lies and attribute them to God. Surely, those who fabricate lies and attribute them to God will never succeed.

God then goes on to reprimand the prophet for making a law that was not given by god himself. Thats how serious he is about not adding to, fudging or blurring the lines of law he has set out.

Quran 66:1 - O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, just to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Merciful.

It requires an honesty on the part of the law makers and discussion with the people they serve to come up with a decent set of rules whereby the innocent and non violent in society can live reasonable lives and that those that strip away possessions and livelihoods through theft and murder can be punished.

Here is the deceit in its full glory and the illusion and you uttered these words yourself not even knowing it " Those who they serve" so you have made us the masters/owners now and we are the Gods here see? This is a sign of a conditioned mind.(not trying yo insult you but show how the trickery works and how we are all oblivious to it. The mind is in a state of confusion and this is the play on words the devils use) Who has given mankind the authority to be law makers? Look up the words. How can we be makers of law when we have been made to follow the law of God? Only a supremebeing (being that has power) can make law. Power comes from ownership. God owns the earth and us so he has the power to make the law. Right now the goverment own us as they are in power and if we break their law we will be locked up. See we are not free at all. We were made to be slaves and we will remain slaves. We just changed our ownership and thats where the problem lies. We have changed our ownership from God to ourselves. E pluribus unum?Latin for "Out of many, one"?is a phrase on the Seal of the United States. The united states is in this instace claiming to be "the one"

Quran 7:54 - Your Lord is the one God, who created the heavens and the earth in six days,* then assumed all authority. The night overtakes the day, as it pursues it persistently, and the sun, the moon, and the stars are committed to serve by His command. Absolutely, He controls all creation and all commands. Most Exalted is God, Lord of the universe.

Does the system of democracy and legalism form the deception or do just some of the people in charge of it do?

Both. The most valuable asset on earth is the human mind. God tells us how the mind can be controlled. Its valuable becasue evil forces will use our own minds against us. If you can get people to incriminate and enslave ourselves then whats a better trick than one where the one who is being tricked is the cause of the trick! Very clever and cunning tactics. i beleive we dont have a right to free will and that is the illusion we live under. We are deluded i'm afraid. Either we do Gods will or we do Our will. Excercising our will is satanic in nature as its defying God. Its one or the other only. There are only us people here no one else. 

6:110 - We control their minds and their hearts. Thus, since their decision is to disbelieve, we leave them in their transgressions, blundering.

7:179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.

We created the deception which is democracy and the people who are in charge of it harbour the sickness in their hearts that God warns us of, vanity and greed and iniquity which are all evil in nature so both parties harbour evil in their hearts!, They/we twist gods words and omit the laws that prohibit them/us  from conditioning our minds, they transgress and we are all conditioned to beleive the concepts given to us by them becasue they are usings Gods advice against us. The deception is as subtle as is the serpant and guess what Satan said? He  said he will sit on the straight path.  We have made a replica of Gods constitution and created our own and decided we the people will do for the people and by the people. Where is God in this? The heirachy has been lost. This way of seeing it is apparent when you go through the stories of the prophets. What was Mecca? A society. What was Egpyt? A kingdom. Why did the children of isreal want to go back to Egypt? Why were'nt the people of Saul allowed to democratically elect their ruler and rather they were appointed a king God had chosen? (2:247) Its there all clear as day. BUT our minds are conditioned to beleive in religion and states and nations and citizenship and accept the daylight robbery, trickery and forgery while our inhertitence is stolen all becasue of FEAR! becasue we want to be protected by our governments  and in turn reject God, that is why we will not see these concepts and that is why God says:

Quran 3:175 - It is the devil's system to instill fear into his subjects. Do not fear them and fear Me instead, if you are believers.


From my understanding through out the scripture, it is God who has always granted Kingship to whom HE wills and whenever the "PEOPLE" have spoken they have invoked the wrath of God. Within Gods system there is no fear as that is a tool of satan. All Governments of today throughout the world have a legal system which says everything is unlawful unless you have a license or sanction to do it from the law makers. They instil fear as a tool to decieve the "people" who in turn enslave themselves by voting for laws based on fear. Oh its a vicious circle.

Here in the UK, we only select local representatives, and then which ever grouping (political parties now, but this is merely like minded people grouping together into formal organisations, was a time where this didn't exist) forms the majority of those representatives is normally given the right to form a Government by the Monarch, a position which is hereditary. That grouping then decides which candidate to put forward as a Prime Minister (usually the party leader, though this is not an actual requirement). That Prime Minister then selects a cabinet which heads each major department, usually people of their own political grouping.

Where is God's will in this description? This describes the will of the people not of the God. We the people unite to form "the one" (blasphemy) voice which then decides who to give kingship/leadership to. Where is Gods Will? Cant see it in this process personally. This is all part of the deception. Its actually really worrying when it starts to become clear as to how deluded we are how arrogant we are. lol We have replicated the hierachy given to us by God and replaced it with ourselves. Aaah the irony!

I agree common sense helps, but it doesn't do a great deal when an oppressor comes at you with a knife to rob or rape you, when there is no society to even punish the oppressor after the deed is done

Quran 4:97 - Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while in a state of wronging their souls, the angels will ask them, "What was the matter with you?" They will say, "We were oppressed on earth." They will say, "Was God's earth not spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?" For these, the final abode is Hell, and a miserable destiny.

In anarchy, while personal freedom is established as an (or rather the only) inalienable right, there is no system in place to protect that right as a police force or justice system is seen as part of Government and melding in person affairs. Instead victims are left to get revenge themselves, and this is the sort of thing that starts blood feuds - something that was prevalent in Arab society before the appearance of the last prophet.

Are you seriously saying that Gods system which is the laws and the commandments regarding civil life equate to no system? There is no police force in gods system im afraid nor lawyers or clergy. I dont call it Anarchy i call it Gods Constitution of which we are all constituents and therefore if we do HIS will which is in the book then we are protected and will have no fear no greive. Evil exsits and is a sickness of the mind as described by God and we are shown the way to avoid such evildoers/disbeleivers and what to do with them. The reason blood fueds take place is GREED. It was prevlant in Arabia becasue Gods Law was not established but rather the law of the people (tribal law) which was established with the intent of greed which naturally resulted in iniquity. This iniquity is what prompted Gods law of intervention to take place and the prophet emerged. If we did Gods Will there would be no victims and no need for revenge. The funniest part of this whole thing for me is that Religion becomes totally nil and void in this interpretation and its all about the individual choice of whos WILL will we follow.

To conclude I would say we need to understand the ways in which our minds work and the things we believe. I will leave you with these quotes to ponder on.

Quran 6:32 - The life of this world is no more than illusion and vanity, while the abode of the Hereafter is far better for the righteous. Do you not understand?!

17: 64 - "You may entice them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces and all your men against them, and share in their money and children, and promise them. Anything the devil promises is no more than an illusion.

31:33 - O people, you shall reverence your Lord, and fear a day when a father cannot help his own child, nor can a child help his father. Certainly, God's promise is truth. Therefore, do not be distracted by this life; do not be distracted from God by mere illusions.

35:5 - O people, God's promise is the truth; therefore, do not be distracted by this lowly life. Do not be diverted from God by mere illusions.

35:40 - Say, "Consider the idols you have set up beside God; show me what on earth have they created." Do they own any partnership in the heavens? Have we given them a book wherein there is no doubt? Indeed, what the transgressors promise one another is no more than an illusion.

57:14 - They will call upon them, "Were we not with you?" They will answer, "Yes, but you cheated your souls, hesitated, doubted, and became misled by wishful thinking, until God's judgment came. You were diverted from God by illusions.

57:20 - Know that this worldly life is no more than play and games, and boasting among you, and hoarding of money and children. It is like abundant rain that produces plants and pleases the disbelievers. But then the plants turn into useless hay, and are blown away by the wind. In the Hereafter there is either severe retribution, or forgiveness from God and approval. This worldly life is no more than a temporary illusion.

Of course we are entitled to our own opinions but i would say lets base them on reality on ground and reason with ourselves as to what Gods Words really mean. I hope this helps you understand where i am coming from.

Peace

Affy

[good logic]

Peace Affy.

I have read your comments with interest. Interesting , although some may think of them as "illusion".

Because the true "illusion" has become reality for the majority. The irony is most of them still shout" GOD is great"...etc.

Taking GOD out of the equation ,then relying on Him to help us or blaming Him for our atrocities is hypocrisy gone mad?

You are right ,we read GOD s words but become blind and deaf to them . Then we are easily fooled by men s words, strange?!!!

Well, we deceive nobody but ourselves?

[Qoran 18:103] Say, "Shall I tell you who the worst losers are?
[Qoran 18:104] "They are the ones whose works in this life are totally astray, but they think that they are doing good."
[Qoran 18:105] Such are the ones who disbelieved in the revelations of their Lord and in meeting Him. Therefore, their works are in vain; on the Day of Resurrection, they have no weight.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Affy77]

Peace Good Logic,

Thanks for the Ayats i hadnt included them. All this does is reiterate my points. You are right i may well be deluded but i know i am at least asking WHY? if i can apply logic and reason then all good if not then i question it. I can only do good and see if God accepts me.

However i am now on a quest to find out what areas in the world are unconstituted by man and see if there is somewhere i can set up home! I wish we could set up a beleivers community which is only governed ny Gods law and we trial this option as God has said and see if we can attain peace? After all Gods law is that we have to expereince something to beleive it with conviction. Unless we dont live through it our mind wont accept it and its our mind we have to get a control on!

Peace

Affy

[Mikebloke]

Hi Mike, Peace.

I will try and rationalise what you have said. But i think we are on different wave lengths.

Salam, Peace Affy.

That's fine, I'm probably being a bit do dar and interpreting it purely from a statist political perspective, its much how I view my faith as a revelations of commands, instructions and worthwhile information. I personally believe that the Quran is probably the only revelation of any religion that specifically outlines Government as a requirement, and is the only revelation that recognizes no matter how strong the connection is between man and God, connections between man and man are just as relevant and more so required.

Defining the boundaries of a law is not our job.  YOU WILL NOT STEAL MEANS YOU WILL NOT STEAL THERE IS NO BOUNDARY TO BE SET ON THAT. You will not kill unless in self defense is a law no boundary there. What about, you will make a will before you die? Recommended if you beleive and if you beleive then you will do it but its not punishable or forceable, but not doing it will only harm you and your loved ones. Witnesses are always required who can also become laible/accountable if they falsely testify but all of this works only IF you beleive. We are the servants and we have a master and law maker. God. Who's accountable? US, not democracies or the legal system! They are not living, remember we are and we gave up our freedom and made them our lords! (House of Lords - irony again) so when we are asked God already told us our lame reply. He knows everything. duh..

Modern example, does copying 0's and 1's on a torrent site for a copyrighted music file constitute a crime, and if so is it theft? (original remains on other persons computer) forgery? (technically it is a direct copy, but in most cases would not be used by the individual to 'trick' anyone else they have the real thing) copyright infringement? (and is there such thing as copyright in the first place?).

Even taking a straight cut case of murder, say the defendant pleads not guilty, does the state not then have the responsibility of a trial? Who conducts the trial, who is responsible for passing judgement, who has the right to give evidence to court, are character witnesses considered valid evidence, does the identity of any of these people involved effect the neutrality of the trial, who decides what is the acceptable punishment, or even the original accusation of a crime? There are so many multilayers to following the law of God, which humans have to deal with. This can only be properly taken into account by developing certain standards, procedures, and accountability.

I'll even concede that this is what caused the rather innocent invention of hadith school of thoughts, which brings us into the mess of the modern age; regardless even without taking non-Quranic sources standardization is still required. I would not expect the rest of the world for example, to follow a constitution based upon an English translation of the Quran, which means there must be a version (logically Arabic) that is accepted as a standard.

Unfortunatley in todays world i cannot see any human beings on earth that follow Gods system and so we are not governed by him im afraid.  I live in the UK and i am a enslaved by the legal system here like you Mike. Apprently The Monarchy was given the right to rule by God (read UK constitution, i did its shocking the stuff in there and we all signed up to it, they claim god gave them the divine right to rule - THATS A LIE)(Oh this includes the 70 odd countries in the commonwealth whos consititions are based on the UK and Queen is their ultimate ruler on paper). But it was an unjust system and people woke up to this, so the monarchs kindly passed power to the people in form of an elected government we have elected and so we are the culprits not even the Queen nor Cameron are to blame here its all us! Lol. the irony! We have chosen that ourselves by rejecting Gods Law and replacing it with our law. The people law/ Common Law. Todays law is fear based. That is a tool of Satan and in turn that makes the law makers satanic. We are the law makers in a democracy and that means we have created a dead thing which has no life.(thats part of the occult and can be defined as witchcraft or illusion - see how we have been conditioned to think of these words as meaning hocus pocus! But look up meanings on various dictionary and the illusion will go away. its clear as God said.) The concept of a state is evil. (like isis have done but the most successful (not for long) are America and the franchise of all other democratic/Kingdoms nations we all live in). Ok i've gone off on one! let me not do that and carry on with rationalising your comments. Sorry!

Minor Point: UK doesn't have a constitution. But I know your pain, I am no fan on the monarchy or any hereditary system either. However even if man was not capable of creating law themselves, one set law would have to be in place, and if say, you or I were the ones that dictated what law that would be, and I don't think we would be very different on what that would be, just the method of its inception; we would merely be authoritarian in our dictating of what it should be instead of the indirect consensus of 60 million people as it is now.

Why are we differing on this? its pretty clear no? see below.

Quran 2:256 - There shall be no compulsion in the system: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in God has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. God is Hearer, Omniscient.

34:25 - Say, "You are not responsible for our crimes, nor are we responsible for what you do."

To add to your point above those specific commandments about, self presevation, taxation, etc etc are guidance on how we should conduct things in the right/good way but i dont see any nations regard these do you? The whole system we live in is backed by usuary even islamic banking. Thats evil i think.

What translation of 2:256 is this? I've never seen it ever refer to anything other than faith in God, not the legal system. Similar situation to your quoting of 34:25, this has more to do with the theological position and personal beliefs of humans, the right to freedom of religion, its not a get out clause for not being punished for a crime against other human beings on the basis of it not being anyone else's business. Yes the current system is corrupt, yes it needs improvements, yes it needs to find its way back to God, but the need for a system is still apparent, its the only effective way of managing groups of people in close proximity, and close proximity of people is a direct result of necessity to form families. The alternative is to live like nomads, and only approach each other for the purpose of conceiving before throwing a new born baby into the wilderness alone because if a mother dared spend any time with her child she may be accused of dictating something not ordained by God on her own child (see how daft it can get when you put it down to the individual level?).

Quran 16:116 - You shall not utter lies with your own tongues stating: "This is lawful, and this is unlawful," to fabricate lies and attribute them to God. Surely, those who fabricate lies and attribute them to God will never succeed.

God then goes on to reprimand the prophet for making a law that was not given by god himself. Thats how serious he is about not adding to, fudging or blurring the lines of law he has set out.

This is fine, but I go back to my previous comment that no matter how close to God the law is, it still requires innovation to a degree by humans in order to block out would be abusers who would take advantage of one humans interpretation of what God meant (our discussion is a perfect example, even if one of us was 100% entirely right, there would no doubt be some way of cracking through it by a determined person by taking advantage of human fallibility in our logic of attempting to claim the ground of understanding God's will).

Quran 66:1 - O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, just to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Merciful.

Here is the deceit in its full glory and the illusion and you uttered these words yourself not even knowing it " Those who they serve" so you have made us the masters/owners now and we are the Gods here see? This is a sign of a conditioned mind.(not trying yo insult you but show how the trickery works and how we are all oblivious to it. The mind is in a state of confusion and this is the play on words the devils use) Who has given mankind the authority to be law makers? Look up the words. How can we be makers of law when we have been made to follow the law of God? Only a supremebeing (being that has power) can make law. Power comes from ownership. God owns the earth and us so he has the power to make the law. Right now the goverment own us as they are in power and if we break their law we will be locked up. See we are not free at all. We were made to be slaves and we will remain slaves. We just changed our ownership and thats where the problem lies. We have changed our ownership from God to ourselves. E pluribus unum?Latin for "Out of many, one"?is a phrase on the Seal of the United States. The united states is in this instace claiming to be "the one"

This is no different to you dictating to me your opinions, the only difference is I accept yours as a valid possibility, while you accuse me of association of humans to God because I want consensus in the form of a formal society between human beings. If I was to beat you over the head with a rock now, then there would be no way of me being punished out of fear of creating man made law and the invoking of your interpretation of 2:256 that punishment could only be dealt on the grounds that I accepted it as a valid desire of God and even then I would not be compelled to have a sentence carried out anyway, which I could not myself make judgement of because I'm not God. Rather than being a crime, your murder would merely represent an event that happened with no respect to morality.

Quran 7:54 - Your Lord is the one God, who created the heavens and the earth in six days,* then assumed all authority. The night overtakes the day, as it pursues it persistently, and the sun, the moon, and the stars are committed to serve by His command. Absolutely, He controls all creation and all commands. Most Exalted is God, Lord of the universe.

Both. The most valuable asset on earth is the human mind. God tells us how the mind can be controlled. Its valuable becasue evil forces will use our own minds against us. If you can get people to incriminate and enslave ourselves then whats a better trick than one where the one who is being tricked is the cause of the trick! Very clever and cunning tactics. i beleive we dont have a right to free will and that is the illusion we live under. We are deluded i'm afraid. Either we do Gods will or we do Our will. Excercising our will is satanic in nature as its defying God. Its one or the other only. There are only us people here no one else. 

Aha, you believe we don't have a right to free will? Was free will not given to us by God himself? To what right allows you to dictate your own opinion above God's? Do you not see the hypocritical nature of your own statement in which you believe a gift from God that effects our placement on the day of judgement is unworthy of the people who hold it? How is that not enslaving people as much as any formal political body? Do we not have the right to make our own mistakes? To try and learn? To have the chance to be good or bad people?

And if free will is an illusion, there is surely nothing wrong with mass suicide of the entire human race, it can't be a sin if free will doesn't exist.

We created the deception which is democracy and the people who are in charge of it harbour the sickness in their hearts that God warns us of, vanity and greed and iniquity which are all evil in nature so both parties harbour evil in their hearts!, They/we twist gods words and omit the laws that prohibit them/us  from conditioning our minds, they transgress and we are all conditioned to beleive the concepts given to us by them becasue they are usings Gods advice against us. The deception is as subtle as is the serpant and guess what Satan said? He  said he will sit on the straight path.  We have made a replica of Gods constitution and created our own and decided we the people will do for the people and by the people. Where is God in this? The heirachy has been lost. This way of seeing it is apparent when you go through the stories of the prophets. What was Mecca? A society. What was Egpyt? A kingdom. Why did the children of isreal want to go back to Egypt? Why were'nt the people of Saul allowed to democratically elect their ruler and rather they were appointed a king God had chosen? (2:247) Its there all clear as day. BUT our minds are conditioned to beleive in religion and states and nations and citizenship and accept the daylight robbery, trickery and forgery while our inhertitence is stolen all becasue of FEAR! becasue we want to be protected by our governments  and in turn reject God, that is why we will not see these concepts and that is why God says:

How would you compromise and decide upon a disagreement between two people, honest question. If you want to go down the "not my business" route, then consider the same problem but if you were one of the two people having a disagreement. Do you just keep talking and hope the other gives in or would you rely on some kind of consensus?

I've cut the rest out as its getting a bit late and there seems to be a common theme, I understand everything you are saying but I've been playing devils advocate by relating it to actual scenarios that would be played out by people in the real world, hence my reliance on relating all this to how it would be interpreted from the viewpoint of humans interacting with other humans. I continue to press my case that no matter how close to God's will and judgement you try to live your life, consensus within the group is still relevant and requires a degree of innovation and thinking from individuals to translate into the lives of human beings. Hence the 'necessity' of a nation state in large populated areas. The smaller the population, the less the requirement for established standards.

This has been genuinely fun Affy, I wish no bad blood upon you, and everything you've said on this matter I've taken on board and integrating where possible to adapt into my own views. I am most grateful for your thoughts.

If I get a chance I'll try to reply to the other stuff.