Are Quran-aloners being arrogant?

[Ayisha]

Nothing wrong in reading and following the best of ......... Bukhari, Muslim, Plato, Homer, Hesiod, Aristotle, Patience Strong or your uncle Jack, just don't take it as 'part of religion or Islam'

Concerning stoning in OT, or Torah, yes for certain things, one of which was 'abrogated' or changed to lashing in Quran.

Follow the religion of Abraham...........who was before Moses and any of the books we know of.

[justamuslim]

@solomon,

I agree with you that there are hadiths that don't contradict the Koran.  Amongst these non-contradictory hadiths, can you show me just one hadith that is the saying of the prophet? Just one hadith that is narrated by prophet Muhammed.  Not narrated by Abu huraira, Umar bin al-khattab, etc. 

If what you say is true that the hadiths are the sayings of he prophet, then show me just one hadith that starts as "narrated by prophet Muhammed". 

[dawngorgeous]

Peace All,

If there are hadiths that do not contradict the Koran and you accept these, why bother accepting them at all?  Surely it makes a mockery, as if you cannot believe the Koran without the hadiths. Some people just cannot walk away from sunnism. If you believe in the hadiths then you cannot be a Koran aloner. The Koran stands alone as a light to us and does not need any help from any other narrations.

Dawn.

[Bigmo]

Salam,

First, let's look on some verses on the issue of arrogance in the Quran:

?I will turn away from My Ayaat (verses of the Quran) those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons signs, revelations, etc.), they will not believe in them...? [Quran; 7:146]

?And they denied them those (Ayaat) wrongfully and arrogantly though their ownselves were convinced thereof...? [Quran, 27:14]

"And do not turn your face away from men with arrogance, nor walk in insolence through the earth. Verily, Allah does not like each arrogant boaster." [Luqman:18]

From these verses, we know that the quran advises us against arrogance. And that anybody who is arrogant won't receive any ayyat (proofs) from Allah.

Now this verse:

?And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being); then We told the angels, ?Prostrate yourselves to Adam?, and they prostrated themselves, except Iblees (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrated themselves.[al-A?raaf 7:11-12]

First, let's look at this part of the verse. If I tell a quran-aloner to prostrate to someone, of course he/she will reject because "I don't worship nobody other than Allah and the issuer of the command is not God". But what if Allah told a Quran-aloner to prostrate to somebody? (notice: prostrating is just one example, it could be any command).

Now the second part of this verse:

He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud. He said: Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride/arrogance here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded.

Notice here: Normally prostrating to somebody other than Allah would be an act of shirk. But in this case: NOT prostrating and disobeying Allah was an act worthy of abomination.

Now there are quran aloners who fall in different parts of a spectrum. Some quran aloners (such as me) are moderate, accept hadiths  for historical purposes which complement and do not contradict the Quran. Some are total Hadith rejectors.

Now we all know that Allah tells us many times in the Quran to follow the messenger in many ways. I do not need to list the verses as you all are familiar. Now apologists may bring other verses which says otherwise, but these verses do not mean that ALL the Prophet's sayings should be arrogantly disregarded. Of course, I am not advocating prostration to Prophet Muhammad or completely accepting all hadiths without question but simply questioning the approach of TOTAL hadith rejection, which I think is arrogant.

Cheers

Many Quranist accept hadiths but the ones which contradict the Quran. There is nothing wrong Quranically about that. But you must not make that binding. Only explicit verses of the Quran should be binding.

There is nothing wrong with prostrating also. Some Quranist have problems with that i think because they think its shirk. Shirk is something very different. Thats why some Quranist have problem with ka'ba. But shirk is something very different. Shirk is a theology and not a behavior. Shrik is base don what you believe and not what you do.

But,

there is nothing wrong with rejecting any other source other than the Quran. In fact there is nothing wrong with following the OT only or the Gospel only as all these scriptures are guidance in their own right. But to understand the deen with depth you need multiple sources.

I personally look at hadiths, previous scriptures and even Talmudic sources to interpret the Quran or even understand the deen more. But anyone of the scriptures is enough for salvation. We are all here for extra knowledge because it is something that inspires us. But the basics are very much known by scriptures.

[justamuslim]

To say that hadiths are the sayings of the prophet is misleading and false.  Not a single hadith is the sayings of the prophet. Let's define and call things for what they are.  Hadiths are a narration of people like Abu huraira and others. 

[stillearning]

AOA

Salam,

Now there are quran aloners who fall in different parts of a spectrum. Some quran aloners (such as me) are moderate, accept hadiths  for historical purposes which complement and do not contradict the Quran. Some are total Hadith rejectors.

Simple me, cannot understand your contradiction. I thought Quran Aloners = Belief in Quran only You cannot be partly pregnant either you are or you are not. Even fanatical hadith believers accept some hadith may be wee bit contradictory. As for the historical bit, if the facts are as per Quran then begs the question why repetition in the hadith. If the facts are not verified by the Quran then how do you know they are accurate?

Now we all know that Allah tells us many times in the Quran to follow the messenger in many ways. I do not need to list the verses as you all are familiar. Now apologists may bring other verses which says otherwise,

Which many ways are these. Perhaps you could provide couple of examples from the Quran.

but these verses do not mean that ALL the Prophet's sayings should be arrogantly disregarded. Of course, I am not advocating prostration to Prophet Muhammad or completely accepting all hadiths without question but simply questioning the approach of TOTAL hadith rejection, which I think is arrogant.

Who is disregarding the Prophet's saying? If you think that 300 yrs later someone can recall his exact sayings then you are .............
Oh yes I almost forgot to mention Is there not a hadith by Muslim: Prophet Mohd forbids his followers from documenting anything from him other than what is revealed by God ie the Quran. Does that not mean that all of the Hadiths are against the prophets wishes ie not following him. Does this not make you very arrogant as you know better than him. Just a thought.

Cheers

Cheers

[Solomon]

Salam everyone,

Thank you all for your valuable contribution to the topic.

I think we should realize first what the Hadiths are. Hadiths were not created out of thin air by Bukhari, Muslim and others 250 years later.

The practices and sayings of Prophet Muhammad in matters such as praying, fasting, charity were passed down from generation to generation by word-of mouth (because of the oral Arab tradition of transmission).

Then 250 years later, Bukhari decided to DOCUMENT these practices and sayings in a physical publication. Therefore, this process was simply a documentation of the word-of mouths and practices which were passed down from Prophet Muhammad. Not created out of thin air.

Granted hadiths are not 100% accurate, I've personally found that with deep study of hadiths and putting the pieces together, it is possible to construct the life of the Prophet Muhammad and follow his deeds in a spiritual level eg. his strategymaking genius, his leadership, his integrity, honesty, devotion etc.

And please note: I'm not saying that we cannot question hadiths. I've noticed some individuals who totally reject hadiths as falsehood. I'm simply questioning this approach.

Salamun alaika,

Except the Fasiqoon, no one arrogantly disregards the Word spoken and conveyed to humanity by the Elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted. I leave it to you to determine and let me know the Word spoken and conveyed by him which he made binding for me to follow.

Salam,

In my opinion, he made the Quran binding to follow. However, at that time people did things like how to pray, how to fast etc imitating the Prophet.  Some details about these practices are simply not in the Quran (probably the non essential parts). In this case, I see no harm if people take details from the Hadiths (in light of the Quran)

This statement is a complete oxymoron. If you accept and uphold ANY of the ahaadith outside of The Quran then you are not a quran aloner as you put it. Another thing, it is misleading to say that you accept ahadith which (as you put it) complement and do not contradict the Quran. You mean which complement and do not contradict the Quran according to Your Understanding. I'm afraid that this is very problematic.

I didn't mean to use the term "quran aloner" in a literal sense. Many Quran alone scholars such as Kassim (from Malaysia),  Joseph Islam advocates the following of hadiths which do not contradict the Quran.

Each one of us follow everything according to our own understanding. You understand and follow the Quran according to your understanding too. So, I don't see any problem with subjectivity.

Peace,

Just an addition to the topic regarding hadith.


Even if you follow hadith which does not contradict the Quran, it may as well be following pure conjecture.
If some in a collection of Hadith show severe flaws, why should anything of it be believed in and followed.

It is the same risk as to be following the strange rituals in the Old Testament. The hadiths are probably as biased as the OT, why then follow even those that seem not to contradict the Quran?

The OT commands stoning, circumcision, strange worship rituals and many other things. Should we follow them? Some strange rituals and procedures do not appear to contradict the Quran, so should we follow those too? Praying while burning incense etc? Being scared of burning the wrong incense because God could consume us with fire?


This is why I do not dare following any other than God's authentic hadith in the Quran.

Conjecture, to what degree? Isn't the Quran a conjecture by itself? A careful study of the compilation of the Quran would also prove the Quran to be a conjecture. You could argue hadiths to be more of a conjecture, but both are conjectures nevertheless.

@solomon,

I agree with you that there are hadiths that don't contradict the Koran.  Amongst these non-contradictory hadiths, can you show me just one hadith that is the saying of the prophet? Just one hadith that is narrated by prophet Muhammed.  Not narrated by Abu huraira, Umar bin al-khattab, etc. 

If what you say is true that the hadiths are the sayings of he prophet, then show me just one hadith that starts as "narrated by prophet Muhammed". 

If you notice, not even the Quran is the saying of the Prophet. When you are reading the Quran, one verse is "compiled by Uthman, collected by Ziad, collected from Umm Kaab's writing in a tree leaf, heard the Prophet saying .......". Skip to another verse and it is "compiled by Uthman, collected by A who collected from B, who heard the Prophet saying.........".

So, both hadiths and quran are not the sayings of the Prophet directly.

Many Quranist accept hadiths but the ones which contradict the Quran. There is nothing wrong Quranically about that. But you must not make that binding. Only explicit verses of the Quran should be binding.

There is nothing wrong with prostrating also. Some Quranist have problems with that i think because they think its shirk. Shirk is something very different. Thats why some Quranist have problem with ka'ba. But shirk is something very different. Shirk is a theology and not a behavior. Shrik is base don what you believe and not what you do.

But,

there is nothing wrong with rejecting any other source other than the Quran. In fact there is nothing wrong with following the OT only or the Gospel only as all these scriptures are guidance in their own right. But to understand the deen with depth you need multiple sources.

I personally look at hadiths, previous scriptures and even Talmudic sources to interpret the Quran or even understand the deen more. But anyone of the scriptures is enough for salvation. We are all here for extra knowledge because it is something that inspires us. But the basics are very much known by scriptures.

Thanks, very good point about the prostration part. I agree with you.

[good logic]

Peace soloman.

Quran is all we need for salvation

The words of the Quran speak in 19:64, saying,

[Quran 19:64] We do not come down except by the command of your Lord. To Him belongs our past, our future, and everything between them. Your Lord is never forgetful.


God did not forget, for example, to tell us how to sleep (18:109, 31:27). Yet, the fabricators of such false doctrine as Hadith & Sunna have come up with religious teachings dictating to their followers how to sleep, and even how to cut your nails and so on...

Claiming we need another source for salvation is a direct contradiction  to what God says.

The Quran proclaims that it is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (6:19, 38, 114, 115; 50:45), and that religious regulations not specifically instituted in the Quran constitute a religion other than Islam,  (42:21, 17:46).

The true believers uphold the Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but the Quran. This principle is confirmed by the Quran. [17:46].

Upholding anything else is idol worship.

Peace.

[Solomon]

Peace soloman.

Quran is all we need for salvation

The words of the Quran speak in 19:64, saying,

[Quran 19:64] We do not come down except by the command of your Lord. To Him belongs our past, our future, and everything between them. Your Lord is never forgetful.


God did not forget, for example, to tell us how to sleep (18:109, 31:27). Yet, the fabricators of such false doctrine as Hadith & Sunna have come up with religious teachings dictating to their followers how to sleep, and even how to cut your nails and so on...

Claiming we need another source for salvation is a direct contradiction  to what God says.

The Quran proclaims that it is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (6:19, 38, 114, 115; 50:45), and that religious regulations not specifically instituted in the Quran constitute a religion other than Islam,  (42:21, 17:46).

The true believers uphold the Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but the Quran. This principle is confirmed by the Quran. [17:46].

Upholding anything else is idol worship.

Peace.

I wonder, good logic, were all the early muslims idol worshippers? In those days, in the entire Umayyad caliphate, you'd have not more than 5 or 6 copies of the Quran. Islamic practices were carried out by following words of mouth (AKA hadiths).

So, were all the early muslims idol worshippers?

I think your excerpt was copied from rashad Khalifa. This is what I think IMHO is arrogance.

[Man of Faith]

Peace,

The Quran is not conjecture, it is an infallible revelation from God, no guesswork or wishful thinking.


Separate man-made hadith from the Quran please. Hadith is alleged observations, not revelation.

May God show us the light.