Open minded and tolerant - what does it mean?

[justamuslim]

Someone brought up something which I thought is important to discuss - being open minded, tolerant and respecting. 

God makes it clear in the Koran that we are to respect and be tolerant of different views and belief system.  And let's talk about what this all means.

Will take RK and his followers as an example as there are members here who are submitters.   I came to learn about RK and the code 19 in the 90's.  I have read his version of the Koran. I have visited his website many times over the years.   But I am not a submitter and reasons being
- No doubt he was guided to make this discovery which although sounds impressive, I cannot personally verify myself of his claims to accept it as my truth. 
- I had come to believe that the Koran was not written by men prior to learning about RK's work.  There were and still are many verses in the Koran which I have wondered over the years if they were indeed words of God but when I read the verses where God asks would you believe some parts and not others, this is what put an end to my questioning and started looking for better understanding of the verses and concepts that troubles me.   For RK to toss out two verses of the Koran no matter how convincing of an explanation he may provide is something that goes against what I believe is the fundamental truth.  What if someone down the road makes yet another discovery awaiting to be made but then some other verses in the Koran don't fit?   
- his beliefs that anyone who dies before age 40 years old is something that goes against the fundamental belief of being held responsible and accountable for ones actions.
- Moses told about the coming of Jesus.  And Jesus in his farewell address foretold the coming of Muhammad.  You can find these in the bible.  No such thing was said by Muhammed.  Well, I can go on... 

Anyhow, I was open minded to listen, read, learn, and think about RK's claims and then came to my own conclusions.  Although I don't believe or agree with his claims, I respect and have tolerance for those who do and will not get into any arguments with members here on their beliefs.  This is what God makes clear in the Koran.  To order a fatwa and have RK killed totally goes against the teachings of the Koran.  This is beyond intolerant.  submitters have been described as belonging to a cult which I don't agree at all.  RK was not a "cult leader".   

And this brings me to my question:  should we respect and tolerate cults like Jim Jones from Jonestown who was the founder and leader of People's Temple who lead almost 1000 people to suicide and murder?  If some present day Jim Jones joins this forum, should we be open minded, welcoming and tolerant? 

I would be welcoming of RK and persons like him but absolutely not to Jim Jones.  Does that make me close minded? 

When we know that it is wrong to oppress or abuse, should we respect and tolerate simply because it is part of that religion or belief?  Emotional, physical and sexual abuse are all done in the name of God. 

Ok - lets take Sunni beliefs for instance.   There are Hadiths promoting sexual abuse in marriage and amongst other things.  Should we then respect and tolerate such beliefs and have an open mind simply because it is worded in religious terms?  Are we to have an open mind about abuse - may it be emotional, psychological, physical, sexual?  What I find so prevalent amongst religious groups is oppression, suppression and abuse of different forms thought of as being part of the religious beliefs.   

I see emotional abuse here in this forum yet we seem too oblivious to it or accepting of it.  I think that in wanting and needing to be open minded and respecting other views, we have lost sight of our moral duty and obligation to fight oppression and stop abuse. 

[good logic]

Peace justamuslim.

While on the whole I agree. I see complications!

Do not get me wrong, where we are 100% clear it is abuse, we should not tolerate it. we should defend the victim.

However we need to check and be sure because:

- is it deliberate?
- Can it be amicably solved?
-Can it be disregarded?
- Would a warning work first?
-etc.
Studying Qoran will helps us improve our knowledge , hence our judgements!

There is a lesson in sura 18 about Moses when he was told:
18:68
""How can you stand that which you do not comprehend?"
وَكَيفَ تَصبِرُ عَلىٰ ما لَم تُحِط بِهِ خُبرًا
18:69
He said, "You will find me, God willing, patient. I will not disobey any command you give me."
قالَ سَتَجِدُنى إِن شاءَ اللَّهُ صابِرًا وَلا أَعصى لَكَ أَم

Yet he turn out very impatient and hasty?

Investigating and giving the benefit of a doubt is always the best start.

Peace.

[farida]

Peace justamuslim.

While on the whole I agree. I see complications!

Do not get me wrong, where we are 100% clear it is abuse, we should not tolerate it. we should defend the victim.However we need to check and be sure because:

- is it deliberate?
- Can it be amicably solved?
-Can it be disregarded?
- Would a warning work first?
-etc.


There is a lesson in sura 18 about Moses when he was told:
18:68
""How can you stand that which you do not comprehend?"
وَكَيفَ تَصبِرُ عَلىٰ ما لَم تُحِط بِهِ خُبرًا
18:69
He said, "You will find me, God willing, patient. I will not disobey any command you give me."
قالَ سَتَجِدُنى إِن شاءَ اللَّهُ صابِرًا وَلا أَعصى لَكَ أَم

Yet he turn out very impatient and hasty?

Investigating and giving the benefit of a doubt is always the best start.

Peace.

Defender of the victim
Don't go around in circle name the abuser and the abused.
Who is guilty of this:
- is it deliberate?
- Can it be amicably solved?
-Can it be disregarded?
- Would a warning work first?
Investigating and giving the benefit of a doubt is always the best start. 

Studying Qoran will helps us improve our knowledge , hence our judgements!

I hope you see the difference between Reading and Studying

[good logic]

Peace Farida.

I can name two:

1- Abu Lahab was an abuser, The prophet was the abused.

2- Hitler was an abuser, the Jews were the abused.

As examples of course.

Peace .

[justamuslim]

Good logic,

how about beliefs that promote abuse like the hadiths for instance?  How can I be open minded about that and society just tolerate such beliefs?  The Koran tells us to respect others views and beliefs but not abuse.  Some of the Sunni views are abusive, suppressive and oppressive.  This is what really troubles me.  God tells us to what to do when my way is different than your way.  But what if your way is abusive - ex raping a woman? 

Ok - if say RK and I got into an exchange.  We will both part ways with saying I don't believe what you believe and you don't believe what I believe.   But when it comes to beliefs that is clearly abusive, are we not supposed to stand up for what is right and fight oppression?

[good logic]

Peace juatamuslim.

Of course we should stand for our right and fight oppression.

How? and When? are important questions to ponder.

Another important factor  is God. Seeking His help and trusting in Him are key.

39:62″ GOD is the creator of all things, and HE is in full control of all things.?

Even if the abuser gets away with it in this life. God is waiting to judge us all on the day of resurrection.

Peace.

[farida]

Peace Farida.

I can name two:

1- Abu Lahab was an abuser, The prophet was the abused.

Peace .

Excellent example and you know how it will end for Abu Lahab.

2- Hitler was an abuser, the Jews were the abused.

And with the end of Hitler none in the world are abused except  some members of this forum 

[justamuslim]

Good logic,

I use RK as an example as I think most people here know of him and is a good example of for me to convey my thoughts.  I would like to know your thoughts. 

Let's say you were also studying under Khalifa with Benjamin Phillips.  You had a funny feeling about him.  Would you just ignore that feeling?  And if you saw somethings about him that were apparent that this guy had some sinister motives, what would you do?   Yes, this is where I am getting at.   Would you just wait and see what this Benjamin Phillips is really up to?  Keep in mind that
God already knows what this imposter was up to.  RK had a fatwa.  He and others should have been on the lookout and aware that people were after him.  Why didn't he take certain precautionary measures?  Often times almost always someone has a hunch about someone or something.  God is not absent being on the sidelines with a hands off approach watching as we navigate through life with the koran while satan is in tow.  But we are all so afraid of judging people, not being haste and being open minded that we often fail to see or understand that there is evil in the world and persons who exploit this about the believers.  I was and I thought like that till experiences taught me different.   

We have become too afraid to call things for what it is.  I am sure this Glen Francis who went by the alias Benjamin Phillips felt strongly that he was in the right.  If someone tells me that RK is a cult leader, enemy of God and needs to murdered, do I really need to consult the Koran to know that this is wrong? We have the faculty to know that it is wrong.  Justifying killing of RK by using the Koran is unconscionable.  Justifying murder is sociopathic.  All these fatwas that these religious scholars doll out is sick.   Let's call things for what they are.  There is religious intolerance and then there is sociopathic attitude.   Intolerance is wrong but sociopathy is immoral.  I don't think people quite see that when talking about religious tolerance.

I don't know if I am conveying my thoughts across.   Let me know. 

[good logic]

Peace Farida.

Please relax. Look on the bright side like you advise others to.

This is a general discussion.

Do not go overboard.

Peace.

[Solomon]

Being open minded and tolerant (in my perspective) means not freaking out or attacking someone just because they have a radically different viewpoint to yours. This principle can be extended as long as the person concerned does not harm other people in society.

In case of Rashad Khalifa, I think we should be tolerant towards him.

In case of Jim Jones, I think he can be compared to al qaeda terrorists who lead a cult towards a violent objective (which harms others). So, it should not be tolerated.

Ok - lets take Sunni beliefs for instance.   There are Hadiths promoting sexual abuse in marriage and amongst other things.  Should we then respect and tolerate such beliefs and have an open mind simply because it is worded in religious terms?  Are we to have an open mind about abuse - may it be emotional, psychological, physical, sexual?  What I find so prevalent amongst religious groups is oppression, suppression and abuse of different forms thought of as being part of the religious beliefs.   

I see emotional abuse here in this forum yet we seem too oblivious to it or accepting of it.  I think that in wanting and needing to be open minded and respecting other views, we have lost sight of our moral duty and obligation to fight oppression and stop abuse.

We should be tolerant to such beliefs because the wife can take the matter to court if she is displeased. Many parts of the world does not view those as abuse eg. Wive(s) in Saudi Arabia take pride in their husband.