Knocking on the doors of atheism

[StopS]

Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected

Maybe you need some repetition: an atheist reacts to claims made by a theist. A theist is someone like you.
You believe there is evidence for the existence of a god.
An atheist does not believe there is evidence for the existence of a god. An atheist is someone who lacks a belief.


1. You can only reject what is proven.
2. An atheist sees no evidence for the existence of a god.
3. An atheist can't reject any god.


1. You can only be rejected by what is proven.
2. An atheist sees no evidence for the existence of a god.
3. An atheist can't be rejected by any god.

Summary: it is impossible logically that an atheist rejects a god or is rejected by a god.

Do you think you can remember this? I do NOT reject any god! Is this clear now?

[noshirk]

Wow, you have some horribly warped misconceptions there! Do you have an example of an "atheist lie"? You use the word "lie" a lot. Is the way you use it really correct? Does any atheist ever make a claim that a "god is a lie"? I was 12 and did not know of scholars or even what a scholar is when I lost my faith and became a rationalist. Do you regularly experience really primitive atheists who are unable to differentiate between a Muslim and a terrorist? If the existing translations are so bad, why don't you make one which does not convey any lies? Just putting the blame on atheists for trusting what 40 odd translators have translated over the last 1000 years is a bit unfair, I think.

Oh dear! Who taught you that nonsense? Have you been listening to Zakir Naik? Naughty naughty!
1. Atheists have no connection to science.  Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
2. Atheists have no opinion of cosmogony or abiogenesis. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
3. Maybe people or individuals have, but that is not associated in any way with atheism. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
4. There are very few physical laws and the rest is anything but precise. Humans can barely understand gravity. We have practically 0 knowledge when it comes to physics when applied to the very large or the very small.
5. Yes, there is occasionally the element of chance, but not the way you seem to misunderstand it.

Shhh, not so loud. This is very, very wrong!

Form wikipedia:
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims?especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims?are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable.[1][2][3] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions

so
Agnostiscim: I don't know
Atheism : i know that there is no deities.

So an Atheist knows !
it is not a lack of belief since they believe that there is no God. So they believe that existence of GOD is a lie.

however, if :
2. Atheists have no opinion of cosmogony or abiogenesis.
but they knows that God don't exists
then we can conclude that:
Atheism=knowledge by ignorance

peace

[StopS]

Form wikipedia:
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims?especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims?are  (so far as can be judged) unknowable.[1][2][3] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions

so
Agnostiscim: I don't know
Atheism : i know that there is no deities.

So an Atheist knows !
it is not a lack of belief since they believe that there is no God. So they believe that existence of GOD is a lie.

however, if :
2. Atheists have no opinion of cosmogony or abiogenesis.
but they knows that God don't exists
then we can conclude that:
Atheism=knowledge by ignorance

peace

Wrong!
Agnostic, as the word already indicates, means no-knowledge.
Atheist is about belief. That is why you have the words belief, unknown and unknowable there.

So you have all the definitions there and you STILL get it wrong???

I have a question: you are a Muslim and I ask you questions, where I assume you know what it means to be a Muslim. You ask me to use only an approved book, a book you approved.

Why, if I am an atheist, do you constantly insist on telling me what I believe?

I don't care what Wikipedia says. MY own definition, approach and understanding is: there is no evidence for the existence of a god.

Well, now you know that your assumption is wrong, so you know the conclusion is totally wrong.

How do you get from a god to abiogenesis? And how does any of this lead to ignorance? Can you explain yourself?

[IAMOP]

IAMOP..... I think your content was lost with your confrontational tone and issues that you seem to have with atheists it seems and the manner in which you approach. 

I am glad that Confused posted this thread as clearly she is not alone and I personally know of people who rejected "Islam", Koran and God based on what people say, portray and practice including some in this forum and not truly understanding God and Islam.   We should discuss and address post like this.   Now, what purpose would it serve and hope you would accomplish though by being confrontational asking "do you have veil over your eye"  and then answering your own question by stating "you have a veil"?   Although you might be right and know it is right, don't you think that it would easily turn off or away someone who truly is confused and lost?   

So lets take it easy on Confused and others like her and not go ballistic 

Thanks Justamuslim but I do not intend confrontation. Even if the words appear confrontational to some, that is an emotional interpolation. I am emotionally detached from such words. Nor do I have a problem with atheists but I do have a vicious problem with people ignoring the substance of an argument and riling themselves up over words and creating pretend drama and mock offense; I have dealt with enough histrionic persons as it is.

If people don't want to be sincere then they can rot in the hell they choose to make for themselves, that is not my problem, I have enough of my own soul to deal with and I suggest you do the same as God says you cannot make the deaf to hear or the blind to see and there are some, to whom you can bring the best of examples and you cannot make them to heed. Now if God the almighty the supreme creator himself is telling you he will not make them to hear, who are you as a limited human being to try to compromise? Do you see where I am coming from?



Now me asking about a veil is not confrontation. I know people say silly things like "are you stupid?". That is certainly not my intention, I am a drop in the ocean like everyone else. It is a genuine question: DO YOU HAVE A VEIL OVER YOUR EYES? CAN YOU READ THESE WORDS? WILL YOU RESPOND TO THESE WORDS? And clearly the word of God has been proven true, that these people are too blinded by their own egotism to even care to answer, too comforted by the seductive whispers of Satan to give a fleeting thought to that which might help. I am not asking whether anybody is smart or stupid. I am shining some morse code and asking if these people can read morse code. Otherwise what is the point of even saying anything when the other party is not even remotely sincere in their intentions to actually consider anything you present?


I have had many teachers put things in a harsh fashion to me. I quell my ego, humble myself and look at the substance of their words, accept I was wrong and correct myself; and I expect nothing less than this from others. I would apologise for my tone had I intended any malice but I never did intend malice, plain and simple and God is witness to the content of my heart, enough said. Just keep in mind that I have seen followed these debates from start to finish hundreds, perhaps thousands of times. And they always end the same. Nobody will ever yield to another person on the internet regarding religion. It does not work that way, either a debate runs through perfectly from the get go (when all parties are sincere) or it is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

Hope this clarifies, peace

[justamuslim]

@StopS, Ahmad and others...

Ok prove me to that you exist.   How do I know that you exist?   What evidence do you have of your existence?   What proof do you have of your age?    What scientific evidence would prove your existence?   Lets see your answer.   

How can you prove that a person existed?  Birth certificate?  What is so scientific about a birth certificate?  Just because so and so witnessed a birth makes it scientific and reliable?   What if the witnesses where not reliable or delusional?   What if there was no historical documentation of birth or death certificate or any historical accounts of a persons existence?   would you consider historical records and witnesses to be scientific evidence?   and what proof and evidence do have that you are actually your mothers child?   

Just because you cannot prove with scientific evidence of a person's existence or lineage, that means a person never existed?    Isn't this the atheist position for their argument that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of God?   No scientific evidence means no existence of God?   

[justamuslim]

Peace, StopS.

I partially disagree. Religious fundamentalists reject those scientific determinations because their theological convictions teach them otherwise. It's not particularly because they choose not to accept reality. There are still Muslims in Arabic countries who teach that the Earth is flat and sitting on a trail of camels! Yes, they're choosing to accept nonsense; but only because they have a preestablished faith in their theological principles - in this case, hadiyths that teach that foolishness... Can I wake up one morning, say, "Hey, I want to believe in angels and demons today," and actually believe it instantaneously? Of course not. It has to be conditioned and established. Otherwise, I'm just claiming to believe it; I don't actually believe in it.

And yes, from a generalized standpoint, theism is an illness. It's called delusion.

Peace,

Ahmad

What proof do you have that the earth is a sphere?  what evidence?  By the way what makes you think that these muslims in arab countries are basing it on pre-established faith based on hadiths?   Is this just your opinion?  did you go ask these arabs or you just made assumptions?   Shouldn't you base your statements on facts and evidence? 

May be these muslims in arab country, based it on common sense.  Actually common sense would say that the earth is flat or more like a frisbee.   The earth looked pretty flat to me when i looked down from the plane.   Your sense of reality that the earth is spherical is based on what?  Essentially pictures taken by astronauts?  Did you actually see the earth from outer space?  No.  Basically, you have placed a blind faith in scientist that the pictures they showed are true.   Essentially what you are doing is exactly what you have alleged these Arab Muslims in doing.  You have accepted scientists/government claims of the earth on faith that they are speaking the truth.   You are convinced by what you read in the paper and seeing pictures or told my people in authority.  Sounds to be that you are suffering from a similar condition as you seem to claim these Arab Muslims are.     Just because these Arab Muslims are not convinced like you and have not put their blind faith,  they are foolish?  Perhaps they find you foolish to believe in something that you actually have not seen for yourself and verifying it for yourself.   

How can you prove providing evidence that the pictures taken and accepted by scientist through out is real and not fake?  May be it is all a propaganda for the Arabs to provide scientific evidence for the Quran which states that the earth is spherical.   

By the way, do you know about Flat Earth Society and their arguments?   They are not living in some Arab country.    They are on Facebook and twitter.  You alleged that these Arab Muslims have been conditioned on nonsense faith but about the arguments and proposed scientific truths/proofs of the Flat Earth Society members? 

If you were living 60 years ago when we didn't have these evidence that you needed for you to be convinced that the earth is spherical, what would you have believed?  Would you have held the belief that the earth is flat based on your senses?  would you have said that Muslims who believed the earth was spherical because of the teachings of the Koran were following theological principles and were foolish, conditioned and delusional?   Would you have rejected factual truth that the earth is spherical due to lack of evidence or proof?   

So does lack of evidence or proof mean that something is not true?   60 years ago we didn't have the kind of evidence we have now about the earth being spherical, so does that mean that the earth is flat and not spherical?  The Flat Earth Society have their own arguments, evidence and apparent scientific proofs.  60 years ago if you came upon them, would you then have been convinced and believed the earth to be flat. 

lack of evidence or proof doesn't alter the fact or truth.  Lack of understanding or knowledge doesn't alter the truth.   Just because we don't have the knowledge, proof, understanding, evidence doesn't mean that something doesn't exist or true.   

So, I find your claim to be a rational thinker to be anything but rational.  More like very much limited.   

[justamuslim]

If people don't want to be sincere then they can rot in the hell they choose to make for themselves, that is not my problem, I have enough of my own soul to deal with and I suggest you do the same as God says you cannot make the deaf to hear or the blind to see and there are some, to whom you can bring the best of examples and you cannot make them to heed. Now if God the almighty the supreme creator himself is telling you he will not make them to hear, who are you as a limited human being to try to compromise? Do you see where I am coming from?

And clearly the word of God has been proven true, that these people are too blinded by their own egotism to even care to answer, too comforted by the seductive whispers of Satan to give a fleeting thought to that which might help.

It is not my ambition to change these kinds of people who even if they see the hellfire with the eye certainty will never change or believe.  I just like to point out fallacies of their beliefs and claims especially to someone like confused who is wondering what she should do.   

[noshirk]

Wrong!
Agnostic, as the word already indicates, means no-knowledge.
Atheist is about belief. That is why you have the words belief, unknown and unknowable there.

So you have all the definitions there and you STILL get it wrong???

I have a question: you are a Muslim and I ask you questions, where I assume you know what it means to be a Muslim. You ask me to use only an approved book, a book you approved.

Why, if I am an atheist, do you constantly insist on telling me what I believe?

I don't care what Wikipedia says. MY own definition, approach and understanding is: there is no evidence for the existence of a god.

Well, now you know that your assumption is wrong, so you know the conclusion is totally wrong.

How do you get from a god to abiogenesis? And how does any of this lead to ignorance? Can you explain yourself?

Sorry StopS
i hope that you can accept the fact that StopSpedia can't be a reference in our discussion.
be aware. According to Quran, atheist are lost in their lmagination and follows their own inventions.

you said: there is no evidence for the existence of a god.
OK. But no proof of existence is not proof of inexistence

Quran says muslims "BELIEVE" in GOD without seeing him. (Bil Ghaieb).
So, existence of GOD or inexistence of GOD is a kind of personal conclusion one reachs after seeing all the signs.
Quran is clear. I can't proove you anything.

Now, there is big difference between you and me.  I have a book (quran) and you don't. You can read my book and i can't read your SoftSpedia.
Of course, you can find many conter arguments in books of so called islamic scholars.
But if you can find an "error" in Quran, please post it.

Finally, i wonder what are you doing in free-minds website if you have complete lack of believe.
Like confused, It seems like if you are knocking on the doors but from the other side.
I dont know if you want to enter or just want to attract confused.


Peace

[StopS]

@StopS, Ahmad and others...

Ok prove me to that you exist.   How do I know that you exist?   What evidence do you have of your existence?   What proof do you have of your age?    What scientific evidence would prove your existence?   Lets see your answer.   

How can you prove that a person existed?  Birth certificate?  What is so scientific about a birth certificate?  Just because so and so witnessed a birth makes it scientific and reliable?   What if the witnesses where not reliable or delusional?   What if there was no historical documentation of birth or death certificate or any historical accounts of a persons existence?   would you consider historical records and witnesses to be scientific evidence?   and what proof and evidence do have that you are actually your mothers child?   

Oh please! Don't come with this old-fashioned and outdated presuppositionalist nonsense....

Just because you cannot prove with scientific evidence of a person's existence or lineage, that means a person never existed?    Isn't this the atheist position for their argument that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of God?   No scientific evidence means no existence of God?

No, :sigh: atheism has nothing to do with science. Atheism is a reaction to theism.

You make a claim - you provide the evidence.
You make a an extraordinary claim - you provide the extraordinary evidence.

It is THAT easy!

[StopS]

Sorry StopS
i hope that you can accept the fact that StopSpedia can't be a reference in our discussion. be aware. According to Quran, atheist are lost in their lmagination and follows their own inventions.

Do you think you do just a tiny, little thing before writing something here? It's really very little effort and saves everyone a lot of time, effort and frustration.

Go to Wikipedia, enter the word or question you have a problem with and then find the definitions, the quotes, the sources. You don't need to read them, just use this to do a very high-level, superficial check to see if you have at least a leg to stand on. Could you do that? Thanks. I would sure appreciate it.

Now: Gnosticism (from gnostikos, "learned", from Greek: γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge; Arabic: الغنوصية‎)

It is not made up by my but you can follow the etymology back to the ancient Greeks. A gnostic has knowledge and knows, the agnostic does not.

Similarly: Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists.

This is, as you can see, also not made up by me and handles belief, not knowledge. So, not in the broadest sense, but for this particular case, theism is the belief that evidence for the existence of a god exists. Atheism does not.

Can you accept that or not? I know it does not fit into your agenda and intent, but that's a fact.

no proof of existence is not proof of inexistence

I absolutely agree with you.

Quran says muslims "BELIEVE" in GOD without seeing him. (Bil Ghaieb).
So, existence of GOD or inexistence of GOD is a kind of personal conclusion one reachs after seeing all the signs. Quran is clear. I can't proove you anything.

And?

Now, there is big difference between you and me.  I have a book (quran) and you don't. You can read my book and i can't read your SoftSpedia.
Of course, you can find many conter arguments in books of so called islamic scholars. But if you can find an "error" in Quran, please post it.

Finally, i wonder what are you doing in free-minds website if you have complete lack of believe. Like confused, It seems like if you are knocking on the doors but from the other side. I dont know if you want to enter or just want to attract confused.

Why would I need a book telling me that I don't need to believe something exists without proof, without evidence and which is never visible and which nevertheless makes demands on me?

I can find counter-arguments? What for if nobody has successfully or convincingly made any pro-arguments yet?

What is an "error"? If I say: the moon is made from cheese. Is that an error. Or an "error"?

Finally, if you wonder about something, why don't you simply ask? Have you thought about why I am here? Have you looked at my introduction (http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604073.0?
If I knock on a door from the "other side" that means I am already inside and wouldn't have to knock at all, would I?
But you can relax, just like the Mars rover, it is curiosity that drives me.