Author Topic: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?  (Read 86547 times)

ayman

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2989
  • Karma +16/-6
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2012, 04:52:28 PM »
Peace brother Wakas,

After a long delay, I have finally completed the 3rd part in my study of sujud series:
What is the meaning of al masjid al haram according to The Quran?
Click: www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
It is quite long and technical at times, but IF my findings are correct, then this would be a huge breakthrough in understanding of Quran. Take your time reading it.
As always, feedback welcome, especially corrections.

Thank you for your excellent efforts in presenting a fresh prespective. Hopefully, this will help in further scrutinizing all the alternative interpretations of AMAH.

I can see that you have listed "the inviolable institution of obedience/SJD" as one of the alternatives. You have also given some of your objections to this particular meaning. For example, you have given 22:25. However, 22:25 actually supports that AMAH is "the inviolable institution of obedience/SJD" by associating it with the path of the god.

22:25 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.

Notice the same association in 2:142 with the straigh path of the god:

2:142 The foolish from the people will say: "What has turned them from the qiblah/focal-point which they were on it?" Say: "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomever He wishes to a straight/establishing path."

From 2:142-150, it can be seen that those who are guided to the straight path are turning their direction to the "the inviolable institution of obedience/SJD".

The straight path is tied to certain inviolable principles and naturally an inviolable insitution of obedience is built upon those principles:

006.151
YUSUFALI: Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.
PICKTHAL: Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath made a sacred duty for you: That ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury - We provide for you and for them - and that ye draw not nigh to lewd things whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern.
SHAKIR: Say: Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand.

006.152
YUSUFALI: And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;- whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfil the covenant of Allah: thus doth He command you, that ye may remember.
PICKTHAL: And approach not the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better, till he reach maturity. Give full measure and full weight, in justice. We task not any soul beyond its scope. And if ye give your word, do justice thereunto, even though it be (against) a kinsman; and fulfil the covenant of Allah. This He commandeth you that haply ye may remember.
SHAKIR: And do not approach the property of the orphan except in the best manner until he attains his maturity, and give full measure and weight with justice-- We do not impose on any soul a duty except to the extent of its ability; and when you speak, then be just though it be (against) a relative, and fulfill Allah's covenant; this He has enjoined you with that you may be mindful;

006.153
YUSUFALI: Verily, this is My way, leading straight: follow it: follow not (other) paths: they will scatter you about from His (great) path: thus doth He command you. that ye may be righteous.
PICKTHAL: And (He commandeth you, saying): This is My straight path, so follow it. Follow not other ways, lest ye be parted from His way. This hath He ordained for you, that ye may ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And (know) that this is My path, the right one therefore follow it, and follow not (other) ways, for they will lead you away from His way; this He has enjoined you with that you may guard (against evil).


So as you can see, 2:142-150, 22:25 and 6:151-153 can best be understood and can only be tied together by the inviolable insitution of obedience. The straight path and the principles in 6:151-153 are inviolable all the time and not only during certain time as 'the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement' interpretation would imply. The people of the book knew about the inviolable commandments from their books as they know their own children.

The inviolable insitution of obedience is thus understood as an institution of authority like government is an institution of authority. This helps explain passages such as 9:19 and 9:28 where those who violated the first commandment shouldn't be the ones in authority telling people what is inviolable.

As for 2:196, it talks about those whose family are already present in the inviolable insitution of obedience, i.e. are already implementing it.

As for 17:1, it actually creates a major problem for "the time' understanding since a few years later can hardly be called "the farthest/remotest time" no more than a Mosque a few hunderd Kilometers away can hardly be called "the farthest/remotest". In this case, I agree with Mazhar that 17:1 can only be understood properly in light of Chapter 53 (regardless of whether it is a physical or non-physical journey). Clearly, the beginnings of Chapter 17 and Chapter 53 are talking about the same event. I also agree with you that 17:7 refers back to AMAH, which is also entered in 48:27. The entry in the inviolable insitution of obedience is like the entry in the obligation/DYN in Chapter 110. Note the same wording "FTH"/opening/breakthrough used in 48:27 and Chapter 110.

Peace and best regards,

Ayman

Ayisha

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2782
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2012, 04:57:47 PM »
You have answered yourself that "sahibu" does not mean companion since he is dead. Do you think Allah the Exalted did not know he is dead?
He wasn't dead at the time of the message.  ???
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe,
The Compassionate, The Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Judgement!
You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help.
Guide us to the straight path,
The path of those You have favoured,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray.

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7541
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2012, 02:48:12 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Mazhar on Yesterday at 03:15:07 PM
You have answered yourself that "sahibu" does not mean companion since he is dead. Do you think Allah the Exalted did not know he is dead?


He wasn't dead at the time of the message.  ???

Does this invalidate the information incorporated in Qur'aan? Your grand father is dead. Is he no more your grandfather?

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7541
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2012, 03:01:25 AM »
Quote
I can see that you have listed "the inviolable institution of obedience/SJD" as one of the alternatives.


On face value this phrase looks strange if not something else.
[Obedience, in human behavior, is a form of "social influence in which a person yields to explicit instructions or orders from an authority figure"[1] Obedience is generally distinguished from compliance, which is behavior influenced by peers, and from conformity, which is behavior intended to match that of the majority. Obedience can be seen as both a sin and a virtue. For example in a situation when one orders a person to kill another innocent person and he or she does this willingly, it is generally considered to be a sin. However when one orders a person to kill an enemy who will end a lot of innocent lives and he or she does this willingly it can be deemed a virtue.]Wiki

Therefor, "Constitution for obedience" might be a better replacement.

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11478
  • Karma +14/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2012, 04:16:30 AM »
peace brother Ayman,

Thanks for the feedback. And also thanks for your help when it was called upon during the writing of this article. As always, I appreciate it.

It's nice to actually discuss the contents of the article in the thread I created for it, so let's begin...

Firstly, you only cover some of the points I raise, but having said that the points I raise about understandings other than "time" (e.g. institution") are scattered throughout the article, so its not ideal but I will try and list them here so its easier for yourself to review:

1) The point you make about 22:25 is NOT actually the problem I highlight. Quote from article:
"In terms of 'act/institution of SJD' the terms "akifu/devotee/resident" and "baadi/bedouin/visitor" would require explanation."
If my memory serves me correctly, the only explanation for this was by bro Tanveer (whom I think you agreed with) and that was "baadi" means "one who left to find clarity". I was not convinced at the time by this, and nor am I today. It fits rather poorly once cross-referenced.
If you have an explanation for the quote from the article, please let us know.

2) You said:
"So as you can see, 2:142-150, 22:25 and 6:151-153 can best be understood and can only be tied together by the inviolable insitution of obedience."
You try to link AMAH with the straight path and cite 6:151-153, and imply AMAH is equivalent to that or built upon those principles. Firstly this equating-link is ok at best and tenuous at worst. Secondly, your use of strong terms such as "...can only be tied together..." is unwarranted. Such tying together is not even necessary in the first place. AMAH and the straight path are mentioned separately in 22:25 and 2:217. Sure they may be related but certainly not equivalent.

There are more troublesome elements for your understanding, e.g. you do not explain the "change in qiblah", i.e. if the believers changed to this straight path you refer to, it implies they were not on this straight path prior to 2:142-150. Please explain.

It does not seem to fit the explanations given in 2:142-150 which are: "...so that not will be for the people against you debate, except those who wronged among them. So do not fear them, but fear Me and that I may complete My favour upon you and so that you may be guided." and "Wherever that you will be, God will bring you (all) together. God is on every thing Able/Powerful."


3) You said:
" This helps explain passages such as 9:19 and 9:28 where those who violated the first commandment shouldn't be the ones in authority telling people what is inviolable. "

Are you implying it is people who decide what is and is not inviolable, rather than God/Quran?
 
Further, it does not explain 9:19 or 9:28. Quote from article:
" 9:19 also seems to imply there is a tangible difference between "watering of those undertaking HaJJ and development of AMAH" and "one who believed in God and the Last Day and strived in the cause of God". This might present some issues with any understandings that try to equate AMAH with God's system in full, as striving in the cause of God would surely involve trying to develop AMAH, thus making them overlap/similar, IF it meant something like that."

Please explain.

Quote from article:
"This clearly implies the polytheists participated in AMAH previously, and "if you fear poverty" shows there is a potential monetary impact to this decision. These two issues require explanation for whatever meaning of AMAH is chosen."

Please explain.


4) You said:
"As for 2:196, it talks about those whose family are already present in the inviolable institution of obedience, i.e. are already implementing it. "

There is no "fee/in" in 2:196 prior to AMAH. But even if we let that slide, the above does not make sense within the context of 2:196. The context is clearly about those travelling to the designated location and what to do in various circumstances etc not whether they are in a government institution or not. How does one formally enter into such institution and thus be excluded from the requirements mentioned? Also, what is the reasoning behind such a setup?

5) what do you translate and understand "masjid" as?

6) Please explain, and ideally provide a translation of 17:1-7 according to your understanding. Further, please explain the vision in 17:60, and 48:27 with respect to your understanding.

7) The problems with holding the view that AMAH is all the time, not at a specific time is that: all the verses with AMAH seem to have specific contexts, in 2:196 are you implying they do this all the time, what makes the usage inviolable sometimes and sometimes not, why is AMAH always singular, and masjid singular as well as plural, why only the latter chapters, it would imply in 9:28 that the polytheists are somehow incapable and not allowed to change their belief system (i.e. believe in and accept the straight path) after this year of theirs, which makes little sense etc.


Quote from: Ayman
As for 17:1, it actually creates a major problem for "the time' understanding since a few years later can hardly be called "the farthest/remotest time"

Not at all. The person being taken from A to B is the messenger of Quran, and since a human being's lifespan is finite, they will die at some point, thus "the farthest/remotest time of SJD" will likely be the last inviolable time-period they will experience before death. Interestingly, this is a good match with the traditions which say the prophet died shortly thereafter.


I strongly recommend re-reading the article, and insert your understanding into each verse to see if it works, bearing in mind what I have said above.

The understanding of AMAH as "the inviolable time of SJD" may be a novel one, but one that is, by far, the most coherent, logical and practical understanding in my view. Since it is novel, it will take some time to digest, which is understandable.



All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7541
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2012, 06:42:02 AM »
Quote
The understanding of AMAH as "the inviolable time of SJD" may be a novel one, but one that is, by far, the most coherent, logical and practical understanding in my view. Since it is novel, it will take some time to digest, which is understandable.

Salamun alaika,

It can perhaps be anything but novel. The Arabic Phrase is Adjectival.  Both nouns of adjectival phrase match in all four features, definiteness, gender, number and case ending. The first Noun is موصوف and the second noun is صفة.

First example discussed in 17:01 suffices to discard the "novel idea" that Almasjid is time adverb. 

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11478
  • Karma +14/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2012, 09:20:19 AM »

First example discussed in 17:01 suffices to discard the "novel idea" that Almasjid is time adverb.

Firstly, I never said it was a time adverb. The form "masjid" is a noun of time or place.

As stated by yourself here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601641.msg288191#msg288191

Quote from: Mazhar
Then the context becomes the most important to determine whether a noun is Noun of Location or Noun of Time.

I am noting a pattern Mazhar. When you have no counter evidence, you simply make it up or run away. We are still waiting on you to answer the questions I asked you in this thread:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.msg309813#msg309813

Further, I am still waiting for you to answer here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604343.msg309090#msg309090

If you do not wish to participate in an evidence-based discussion, then please refrain from posting on this thread.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Mazhar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 7541
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2012, 09:58:55 AM »
Quote
Firstly, I never said it was a time adverb. The form "masjid" is a noun of time or place.

As stated by yourself here:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601641.msg288191#msg288191


What is the difference between 'Noun of time" and "time adverb"?

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 6155
  • Karma +16/-9
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #58 on: October 10, 2012, 10:35:05 AM »
Peace Wakas.

I am not ready to join the debate about " AMAH" just yet. I am still studying your work.

What I want to provide for you now is other verses connecting and explaining " 17-1"
سُبحٰنَ الَّذى أَسرىٰ بِعَبدِهِ لَيلًا مِنَ المَسجِدِ الحَرامِ إِلَى المَسجِدِ الأَقصَا الَّذى بٰرَكنا حَولَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِن ءايٰتِنا إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّميعُ البَصيرُ

53-1-18- gives a detail explanation about 17:1. Please have a look and see .

Especially 53:13 to 18.
وَلَقَد رَءاهُ نَزلَةً أُخر

عِندَ سِدرَةِ المُنتَهىٰ

عِندَها جَنَّةُ المَأوىٰ

إِذ يَغشَى السِّدرَةَ ما يَغشىٰ

ما زاغَ البَصَرُ وَما طَغىٰ

لَقَد رَأىٰ مِن ءايٰتِ رَبِّهِ الكُبرىٰ

Also  97:1  explains the " night" in 17: 1
إِنّا أَنزَلنٰهُ فى لَيلَةِ القَدرِ

Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

Wakas

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 11478
  • Karma +14/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2012, 11:21:59 AM »
w/salaam gl,

I did note chapter 53 but I could not make any solid link to 17:1 although I do think it could be linked. Similarly 97:1 may be linked but I found nothing solid.

Once you are finished reading/studying the article, please share your thoughts, and if possible, evidence for the above link.


Mazhar,
Your question is irrelevant as I did not say "time adverb". As I said, if you do not wish to engage in evidence based discussion, on what I actually said, please refrain from posting on this thread.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org