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New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?

Started by Wakas, October 07, 2012, 07:24:11 AM

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ayman

Quote from: Ayisha on October 14, 2012, 05:40:22 AMinstitution of obedience, like the institution of marriage, has no address or location  :angel:
Edit: maybe I should have read all of it first ............. :confused:

This is a good analogy. The institution of marriage has no specific address but as far as the location aspect is concerned, it is any location where the married couple lovingly share their lives together. Similarly, the location aspect of "al-masjid al-haram" is "al-bayt al-haram" that has no specific address but is any where no partners are setup with the god.

Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
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ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

Quote from: Wakas on October 14, 2012, 05:52:38 AMDespite my efforts to clarify the alleged contradiction, you now claim it is even worse, and again do not reply to the other questions. Before I again clarify, let's try to take this one issue at a time, and tackle what seems to be a simple issue. Here is how this went:
.
.
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Yes, you never mentioned anything about trading, and that is what I'm trying to find out. You have still not answered what I originally wrote in my article, on 9:19 and 9:28 (highlighted in red above). Please provide a clear and direct answer.

I agree that we need to take one issue at a time. In my explanation of 9:19 and 9:28 I relied on the meaning of the terms "ummi" (commoners) in contrast to the people of the book. Could you please provide your own interpretation of "ummi" and "people of the book" and how do you see they contrast?

Also, please allow me to highlight what is, from my personal prespective, the major issue that you have never addressed:

It is an indisputable fact that all of those realtionships that you say link the straight path to AMAH are applicable ALL the time. None is only applicable to a certain physical time (Wakas interpretation) or place (traditional interpretation).

This issue by itself is sufficient to negate your present interpretation and motivate us to look for a better interpretation.

Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
www.quran4peace.org
[url="https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace"]https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace[/url]
English: [url="http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html"]http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html[/url]

ayman

Peace sister Sushi,

Quote from: sushi1992 on October 22, 2012, 06:17:04 PMIt would be really kind of you to let me (us as a whole) know when you complete the English version of your book as I would be extremely interested in reading it since my views on "islam" have always hovered around yours and Wakas's understanding. At a later time I might contribute to this argument having read Wakas's article a few weeks ago but I will first try to fully understand the links and correlations made in the article to a sound degree. Continue your great work that you post on Free-Minds and admirable research :).

Thank you sister for your kindness. I am working on completing the English version. If the book conveys nothing accross except the fact that "islam" means "peacemaking" then this would be enough to fix many of the problems in the world.

Peace and best regards,

Ayman

الإسلام من القرآن
www.quran4peace.org
[url="https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace"]https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace[/url]
English: [url="http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html"]http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html[/url]

ayman

Peace sister Sushi,

Quote from: sushi1992 on October 23, 2012, 06:35:44 PMIt's times like these where I can only learn and better myself to be able to pluck these verses out of my head in my defense. Anyway, I will shortly post my own interpretation of which one of the two translations I am more leaning towards (i.e. the inviolable institution of obeying/acknowledging or the inviolable time of obeying/acknowledging). In the mean time, I hope not to hinder any of this discussion if i have done so....

I look forward to your interpretation. Do not worry about hindering the discussion, unless of course you end up agreeing with brother Wakas :).

Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
www.quran4peace.org
[url="https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace"]https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace[/url]
English: [url="http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html"]http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html[/url]

Mazhar

Quote from: ayman on October 24, 2012, 10:25:09 AM
Peace Mazhar,

The "location" aspect of this institution is defined by "albayt alharam". We are clearly and precisely told its location here:

وَإِذْ بَوَّأْنَا لِإِبْرَاهِيمَ مَكَانَ الْبَيْتِ أَن لَّا تُشْرِكْ بِي شَيْئًا وَطَهِّرْ بَيْتِيَ لِلطَّائِفِينَ وَالْقَائِمِينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجُودِ


And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place is that do not partner with me a thing, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the maintaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.


The god tells us that the location is any location where partners are not setup with the god. Clear and simple. So Mecca is definitely not the location since the pagans setup filthy idols such as the black stone and the black cube as partners with the god and they adore, fondle and kiss those idols.

Peace,

Ayman

Salamun alaika,

I read it only to feel sorry that this could be stated by a man like ayman and that too after pasting the original Arabic text. "My House" is "any location"! What a novel idea!!
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Wakas

peace brother Ayman,

I do not see how my understanding of "ummi" helps you to answer what I asked about your own view, but I will answer. I take "ummi" to mean "gentile" but I do not mind "commoner" (as you put it).

Now that is cleared up, please provide a clear and direct answer to what I asked regarding 9:19 and 9:28. Thanks.


Quote from: ayman on October 24, 2012, 10:45:25 AM
Also, please allow me to highlight what is, from my personal prespective, the major issue that you have never addressed:

It is an indisputable fact that all of those realtionships that you say link the straight path to AMAH are applicable ALL the time. None is only applicable to a certain physical time (Wakas interpretation) or place (traditional interpretation).

This issue by itself is sufficient to negate your present interpretation and motivate us to look for a better interpretation.

Actually, I have addressed it, but you seem to think there is a contradiction. The problem, one of your own making, is quite simple: you attempt to make equivalent AMAH with the straight path then project this into my view when nowhere did I state the straight path is equivalent to AMAH. Neither does Quran for that matter. They are only made equivalent in your own view.

I gave some reasons why AMAH may be related to the straight path, and just like many things are related to the straight path, e.g. giving to charity, freeing a slave, being kind to one's parents, but that does not make them equivalent to it however, i.e. giving to charity = the straight path. Giving to charity is part of the straight path, i.e. they are related. Similarly, undertaking AMAH is part of the straight path, i.e. they are related. They are not equivalent.

If YOUR view is that they are equivalent, that's fine. Please answer the rest of my questions.


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Wakas

Please note all off topic content, such as code-19 discussion may be deleted from this thread. Please either begin a new thread or post in an already existing thread that is relevant.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

ayman

Peace Mazhar,

Quote from: Mazhar on October 24, 2012, 12:54:40 PMI read it only to feel sorry that this could be stated by a man like ayman and that too after pasting the original Arabic text. "My House" is "any location"! What a novel idea!!

Why do you feel sorry? I am the one who should be sorry that I didn't introduce you earlier to the novel idea of not setting up partners with the god.

Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
www.quran4peace.org
[url="https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace"]https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace[/url]
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Pazuzu

QuoteWhy do you feel sorry?

Peace, Ayman...

I think the idea here is that some people seem to have a problem accepting that the Masjid Haram and Masjid Aqsa are physical, geographical places. 

Personally, I see no problem with the belief that they are.  "Al-Bayt" (the Sanctuary) is a physical location (a high altitude valley) where the ancient Arabs made offerings of livestock during a four-month restriction period (Al-Hajj).  When Abraham thanked Allah and mentioned that he settled his progeny in an uncultivated valley, it really means a literal and physical place. Likewise, when Allah spoke to Musa and told him to remove his slippers because he was in the Sanctified Valley of Tuwa, it is clearly a physical place, not some kind of abstraction or system.

Having said that, I have a theory as to what the Masjid Haram and Masjid Aqsa really are, if you care to consider it:

The Masjid Haram is a PLACE.  (Just as "maghrib" is the place or direction of the sun set, and "mal3ab" is a playing field, and "malha" is an amusement park).  It is a geaographical expanse which surrounds and encompasses the Bayt (Sanctuary), where the laws concerning the restriction of hunting game are observed, and where the hustle and bustle of the pilgrims who used to come and make the livestock offerings to feed the poor, pay their alms, trade, and discuss the problems of society. It is the place where the annual Hajj gathering took place in the crowded and conjested Sanctuary (quite a noisy place, as I imagine it to be). During the time of Muhammad, there where instances when the believers were blocked or prevented from reaching this place, and making the offerings. The Quran talks about times of war, and regulations for fighting in the Masjid and cleansing the place from idol-worship. How some people can't see this as a phisycal location is truly puzzling.

The Masjid al-Aqsa, on the other hand, is a more quiet and solitary place, where Moses heard the divine call at the Valley of Tuwa, and where Muhamad also had a spritual encounter at the Sidr tree. (It is like a place of reflection and meditation). Many times I have pondered about the first passages in Surah 17 and wondered if the subject of the Isra (night journey) was Muhammad or Moses. I have finally accepted that it was indeed Muhammad who made the journey, and ended up in the very same place where Allah spoke to Moses nearly 18 centuries earlier.

Consider the following:

{So when he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley at the blessed area of the tree: "O Moses, it is I, Allah, the Rabb of all peoples."}

The intimate details given there mean that Muhammad knew that place very well. It is the Valley of Tuwa, where Moses removed his slippers as a sign of respect, and heard the divine call. Muhammad made the night journey to that same place, and had his own vision at the site of the Sidr (Lote) tree.


{Did the narrative of Moses come to you? (O Muhammad) * His Rabb called him at the sacred valley of Tuwa * Go to Pharaoh, for he has transgressed}...[79: 15-17]

{I am your Lord, so take off your slippers; you are in the holy valley Tuwa}...[20:12]

Going back to Surah 17, it begins in Ayah #1  by praising Allah, who sent Muhammad on a journey from the Masjid Haram (the site of the Sanctuary where the Hajj is conducted every year in a barren valley) to the Masjid Aqsa, which lay at the furthest reaches of the territory, and was a place of green mountains, where the Tur (famous mountain covered by trees and very well-known to Muhammad and his people) overlooked the valley of Tuwa.

The purpose of the trip was to show Muhammad some signs. What signs are they? I believe they are the same signs mentioned in the first passages of Surah 53 (the vision of Jibreel at the Sidr tree). This vision was seen by Muhammad in the SAME place (the valley of Tuwa) where Moses heard the divine call.

This is why Ayah # 2 of Surah 17 immediately talks about Moses receiving the Scripture as a guidance to Bani Israel.

By tying all these passages together, we can reach the following conclusion: that Masjid Haram is the geographical region where the site of the Hajj was located, whereas the Masjid Aqsa is the site of the Valley of Tuwa, where Moses and Muhammad saw the divine signs.

Peace...




ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

Quote from: Wakas on October 24, 2012, 01:22:09 PMI do not see how my understanding of "ummi" helps you to answer what I asked about your own view, but I will answer. I take "ummi" to mean "gentile" but I do not mind "commoner" (as you put it).
Now that is cleared up, please provide a clear and direct answer to what I asked regarding 9:19 and 9:28. Thanks.

It is not cleared up. It is impossible for the term "ummi" to mean "gentile" since some of the children of Israel are described as "ummi" in 2:78.

Quote from: Wakas on October 24, 2012, 01:22:09 PMActually, I have addressed it, but you seem to think there is a contradiction. The problem, one of your own making, is quite simple: you attempt to make equivalent AMAH with the straight path then project this into my view when nowhere did I state the straight path is equivalent to AMAH. Neither does Quran for that matter. They are only made equivalent in your own view.
I gave some reasons why AMAH may be related to the straight path, and just like many things are related to the straight path, e.g. giving to charity, freeing a slave, being kind to one's parents, but that does not make them equivalent to it however, i.e. giving to charity = the straight path. Giving to charity is part of the straight path, i.e. they are related. Similarly, undertaking AMAH is part of the straight path, i.e. they are related. They are not equivalent.
If YOUR view is that they are equivalent, that's fine. Please answer the rest of my questions.

In my view, the inviolable institution of obedience is the "qibla"/target while the straight path is the path that we are on to reach that target. This is how they are explicitly related.

Everything that you say about the relationships that exist with the straight path e.g. giving to charity, freeing a slave, being kind to one's parents, are not only at a certain time but they are ALL the time. So why are you making AMAH only a temporary event despite it being also clearly related to the straight path in your view? Once you reconcile this then our discussion will become easier.

Peace,

Ayman
الإسلام من القرآن
www.quran4peace.org
[url="https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace"]https://www.facebook.com/Quran4Peace[/url]
English: [url="http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html"]http://www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html[/url]