New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?

[amin]

Haram refers to the sacredness, every religion finds the sacredness and signs of God in certain things, like the Sun, the human reproductive organs, the cow, the stars, hills , the angels etc.. In Islam the masjid itself is Haram(sacredness) as there is nothing to be associated with, so the belief/thought, there is nothing that can be associated with HIM is the masjid Al Haram and it becomes the focus, ie Purity of mind and body is the focus. It starts from the story of Abraham and the state of his mind that all encompassing is his creations and signs. but Quran also asks us to respects the signs an also respects the prophets, the angels etc.

[centi50]

Salam.

Physical journey does not also sit with me properly

God bless

[Wakas]

I thought I'd add this to this thread. A common misconception:

What was the difficulty/test mentioned in the "change of qiblah" verses?

https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/qiblah.html

[Wakas]

https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Another possible option could be al masjid al haram meaning the inviolable place of acknowledgement, which refers to the area in which the various regulations are in place, no fighting etc and hajj/commemoration takes place there. So not a Mosque but an area. Interestingly this has some support in tafsirs, as mentioned in the article.

The possible weaknesses for this understanding could be a few verses. I'm currently reviewing it.


Background:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html

[amin]

The Masjid Al Haram, can refers to a sanctuary,and initially used by some sects and later taken over by the muslims,where fighting was forbidden and used for religious sacrifices at the time of Hajj, and also looks to be a center for the community, where its people unite.

Sanctuaries were built for such purposes, since very ancient times, by the Jews, Romans, Nabateans, Greek and even the Pyramids can be a type of sanctuary.

Mount Hermon has a lot of old temples, the word Hermon comes from the word Haram,
Jerusalem Temple mount is called  Haram al shariff,

Nabatean Arab Sanctuaries were there dedicated their Gods, in places like Petra and many other places.

[uq]

Great article Wakas.

It's interesting to consider the intended sense of the phrase as 'time of sujǔd.' It certainly fits some Quranic statements. I assume, therefore, that you understand the following statement as a figurative expression: ومن حيث خرجت فول وجهك شطر المسجد الحرام وحيث ما كنتم فولوا وجوهكم شطره And whence thou hast egressed, turn thou thy face in the direction of almasjid alharam, and whencesoever ye be, turn ye your faces in its direction 2:150?

What would be the reason here for the use of خرج To egress/go out?

[Wakas]

peace bro uq,

No, not really figurative. It is saying wherever thou/you (i.e. any believer) are turn your face/will/purpose/attention/whole-being towards the special time-period/event, i.e. get ready, prepare yourself for what you need to do and since it involves travel for many, so wherever you depart, wherever you have to travel from, turn your purpose to this event, getting there, attendance etc.

Let me explain...

In my view, prior to these verses the believers of the time did not concern themselves* with the event of al hajj and the special time period/event surrounding it, e.g. annual haram, annual fair or however one interprets it - it is clear it an event with various regulations in place. Logic dictates that this requires a demarcated area in which these regulations are in place.

*nor was it commanded by God.

I often wondered why Quran only seems to mention al hajj, AMAH, in the latter part of revelation, but now I have a good idea why, and it is linked to the change of qiblah/focal-point/focus. Prior to this the believers were going against the grain, i.e. against the people surrounding them and their beliefs, preaching a contrary message, distancing themselves ethically/spiritually, it was an antagonistic approach. It would have been tough and lots of persecution/hostility, and it would have taken time for their numbers to grow.

By the time of these verses the believers were relatively large in number and relatively widespread, i.e. they were nearing completion of God's favour/blessing, but they needed a way to solidify their growth, a way to display a show of force, in order to triumph above all surrounding opposition, hence the messenger's feeling [2:144], looking for a way forward so God provided them with the perfect opportunity, the perfect vehicle though which to do this and unite through this, and that was this special event, e.g. AMAH, al hajj etc.
This well-known undertaking/event allowed them to gather believers from all over [2:148] and solidify their authority and once others saw that, it was effectively over for the opposition. Hence the fulfilled prophecy 48:27.

Naturally this involves travel, preparation etc hence the phrase you referred to.

After which, in my view, a confederation of believers formed which Fred Donner talks about a lot [

].


Book pdf.

Let me know your thoughts.

[uq]

I see. I accept the 'believers' movement' thesis of Donner. Pretty early on in my Quranic journey, I kinda gathered that the community of believers around Muhammad was multi-religious or ecumenical, based on statements like 2:62 and others like it.

I completely accept your rendition of 'time of sujūd', just as much as I accept the possibility of 'place of sujūd,' both, to my mind, are tenable.

What supports your position further is an early attestation of Masjid in the work of Abd ArRazzāq AṣṢan'ānī (died around 200 AH), the Muṣannaf, which is esentially a massive work on reports/hadith. However, Harold Motzki reckons that some of the reports in that work that date back to the early 100s and late 90s are historically reliable. I only mention this work to say that it uses the word Masjid in a way which is very close to the definition you give, i. e. any place of sujūd, as opposed to a formally instituted building dedicated to worship (or Mosque). Thus, one observes in this work that people speak of "a masjid in the house of Zayd" or "a masjid in the bazar" and so on. Therefore, up until the late 1st century and early 2nd century, people still understood the term Masjid in a purely inguistic sense, namely, any time or place of sujūd.

It ought to be noted, however, that Ḥajj or Ḥagg has been attested in inscriptions in Arabia since pre-Quranic times in various languages and dialects of old Arabic. Its meaning there seems to be related to making a trip to a shrine and making an offering to one's deity; Al-Jallad has recently published The Religion and Rituals of the Nomads of Pre-Islamic Arabia, you can find more information there. Of course, I take the view that the Quran is more than capable of defining its own terms, but I also believe that it is near-critical that one ought to be able to harmonise historical realities into one's thesis, whatever one's thesis may be. To this end, I can see how your idea may agree with these historical realities.

What is your understanding of Bakkah in 3:96?

Also, what do you make of the northern origin theory? I. e. that AMAH was originally in the north of Arabia or maybe even the Levant?

[amin]

Eventhough Masjid Al Haram, refers to a place in many verses, in some verses 2:140-150 its about its literal meaning, which i think is closer to "Dicipline/Morals/Following the Restrictions",
for example 2:150, "so people will not have any arguments except the law breakers/wrong doers".

So the Qibla will the discipline/law+rules, and to follow those, whereever one go or is in,

[Wakas]

peace uq,
Thanks for the additional information. There was likely various haram or sanctuaries setup across Arabia. This is what I have read anyways.

I have no issue with al hajj involving travelling to a particular location and it is very likely there was a shrine there or multiple but that does not necessarily mean they were venerated by the believers of Quran. There was almost certainly a mix of practices going on in that location, due to the mix of people there.
This is how I believe these rituals got mixed into Muslim practice inadvertently. What likely compounded the issue was al hajj and AMAH did not play a significant role for the believers until at a late stage hence there was not much familiarity with the practices associated with it, and apparently the messenger only did hajj once (although some say a few times), and apparently there was a mix of views on whether it was obligatory or not after these events (i.e. after the prophet's passing). Further some have said some of the early traditional tafsirs or hadiths are simply exegetical material made-up to explain the Quran's verses so they likely did not know or it was forgotten what some of the terms referred to etc.
So I can imagine many believers after the prophet's passing if they did do hajj etc would have done some of the things that others were doing at these locations, then gradually these practices became Islamisized, folklore turned into facts, formalised as orthopraxy etc.
I often wonder what Traditionalists say about Jesus and Moses and hajj, if they did it or not, if yes, where to etc, where is the record of this etc - if you are familiar with what Traditionalists claim on this issue please share. I'm familiar with "hagg sukot" but I imagine this was done in various other places, not the place today known as Makkah. If so this fits with my hypothesis that a specific location may not be as important as commonly thought.


I speak about "bakkah" here:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Quote:

3:96 Indeed, the first1 house/shelter placed/set-down2 for mankind was the one with/in/by/at bakka3 blessed and a guidance for the beings.
3:97 In it clear signs/evidences, the stance/position/status4 of Abraham, and whoever entered it was securing. And for God upon mankind (is) the HaJJ (at/of) the house/shelter, whoever is able to make a way to5 it, and whoever conceals/rejects then truly God has no need of the beings.

1first means others are possible, also see 24:36. This would explain well the narration interplay between Abraham's example and the believers this time around, indicating that Abraham's model is an example for them to follow. This is perhaps linked to his status as an imam/model/exemplar for mankind [2:124].
2 Arabic: "wudi'Aa" often translated incorrectly as "set-up" or the like.
3 this could be a proper name of a place, however it could mean "distinguishing/ranking above others", "crowding" or some other CAD meaning for Ba-Kaf-Kaf. Interestingly, "crowding" is a common meaning to both BaKKah and MaKKah, thus could explain how they became interchanged in future Traditional Islamic sources. I personally think "makkah" means "crowding" in 48:24.
4 Arabic: "maqam" does not commonly mean physical standing place, see other occurrences.
5 Arabic: "ila" implies motion and/or direction.

Note the object of it (Arabic: hi/hu) can only be "bayt/shelter", however most traditional translators try to explain this away as referring to "the haram/sanctuary of Makkah" e.g. Ibn Kathir. This peculiar issue will be discussed later.

If the "bayt" mentioned in 3:96 is the cuboid called Kaabah in Makkah, then this has some issues:
1) a building is never described as a "guidance" elsewhere in AQ. However a community/nation can guide (e.g. 7:159, 7:181, 21:73)
2) according to traditional Islamic history the cuboid called Kaabah has been demolished and rebuilt several times, and flooded multiple times - if so, does its status as a "guidance" and "securing" become temporarily suspended at these times? Is it really a divinely chosen place if it is prone to flooding?
3) what are the clear signs in the cuboid called Kaabah? Is there even any? It is very rare for people to enter it today.
4) I am not aware of any non-Islamic source that states Abraham was in the area of Makkah, nor any prophet/messenger thereafter.
5) in present day Makkah, the alleged "maqam Ibrahim" (stone imprint of Abraham's footsteps) is outside the cuboid called Kaabah, not inside it like the verses say.
6) I am not aware of any source which cites a place called Makkah or a cuboid called Kaabah prior to traditional Islamic sources.


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Re: northern origin theory
I think it has some weight. I know bro Ayman thinks this is the case also. I often wondered why Quran is not explicit about the location if the location was important. To me it reads as a model, an exemplar for us to follow. Prophet Muhammad seemed to have followed the blueprint of Abraham and instituted it wherever he was, so likewise believers of today can follow that same blueprint if they wish to institute this event.

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Side note:
Since you like linguistics in my article on AMAH I mentioned the alleged grammatical issue in 2:217. Would be good to get your take on it.

To be honest I think we've pretty much cracked what al hajj, AMAH is. I dont think there needs to be uniformity on what we all call it as long as we understand what it is. Just my thoughts.