Author Topic: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?  (Read 86543 times)

Ashraf

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #100 on: November 04, 2012, 09:03:25 AM »
Salaam,


I guess bro Wakas concern are:


1. Does terminology "al-masjid al-haram" (AMAH) is TIME applicable usage eg. during Hajj period ? (due to Hajj element in 9:19)

or

2. Does terminology "masajid Allah" is TIME applicable eg. outside hajj period ? (No mention of Hajj in 9:17 and 9:18)


indeed, there was abrupt change from "MASJIDs only" (general-plural) in 9:17 & 18 to "al-masjid al-haram" (specific-singular) in 9:19 when "HAJJ" were introduced in 9:19


My analysis:


1. There are many instances of AMAH was related to Shahral Haram, Hajj & Livestock but not all AMAH was related to Shahral Haram, Hajj & Livestock as i could evaluate from 2:144, 2:149, 2:150, 17:1)


2. AMAH exist as long as ABAH (al-bayt al-haram) exist. ABAH is the specific settlement/hometown being referred in 5:2 of which their citizens were able to enforce hunting restriction law. AMAH is subset of ABAH, the way i see it.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تُحِلُّوا شَعَائِرَ اللَّـهِ وَلَا الشَّهْرَ الْحَرَامَ وَلَا الْهَدْيَ وَلَا الْقَلَائِدَ وَلَا آمِّينَ الْبَيْتَ الْحَرَامَ يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّن رَّبِّهِمْ وَرِضْوَانًا ۚ وَإِذَا حَلَلْتُمْ فَاصْطَادُوا ۚ وَلَا يَجْرِمَنَّكُمْ شَنَآنُ قَوْمٍ أَن صَدُّوكُمْ عَنِ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ أَن تَعْتَدُوا ۘ وَتَعَاوَنُوا عَلَى الْبِرِّ وَالتَّقْوَىٰ ۖ وَلَا تَعَاوَنُوا عَلَى الْإِثْمِ وَالْعُدْوَانِ ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّـهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ


3. The believers in 5:2 above, were the citizen of ABAH (the settlement area) because they are the ones who were instructed to observed the hunting restriction law and be ready with livestock supply (hajj) for the consumption by the toifin and the qoimin.


4. During the Hajj months the toifin (non citizens of bayt/non locals) and the qoimin (citizens of bayt/locals) will congregate in ABAH to witness the benefit/bounty of livestock which was broughtdown to mankind, remember Allah names (zikrullah ayyamin ma'dudah), do business, learn the restriction law, provide water services (siqayah) to visitors, food planning etc.


5. The instruction to the believers, as well to ta-ifin & qa-imin, not to do rafas (any sexual provocations), fusuq (any evil provocations) and jidal (any debate provocations) was because there were congregations of people. These 3 things normally happen when they were many people of different gender, intentions and thinking level, flocking together in one place.


6. The OBSTRUCTION (َصَدُّوكُمْ عَنِ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ) imposed to the believers in 5:2 and 48:25 was over access to AMAH (the service center), not ABAH (the settlement).



Best regards.

Wakas

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2012, 04:46:54 AM »
Salaam Mazhar,

No, I did not miss that post. I will need a verse reference to translate.

And secondly, your previous posts were concerned with what I did not say/write thus I never responded. In case, you are wondering.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Mazhar

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2012, 06:39:23 AM »
Salaam Mazhar,

No, I did not miss that post. I will need a verse reference to translate.

And secondly, your previous posts were concerned with what I did not say/write thus I never responded. In case, you are wondering.

Thanks, it is 22:25

Others I did not notice. Kindly give reference, so that I might check why I wrote what you did not say. Shall be obliged.

Wakas

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2012, 01:16:05 PM »
Mazhar, why are you asking me to translate 22:25 when I have already done so in my article?

See: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Quote
22:25 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.

This verse causes some problems for the 'institution/act/place of SJD' understandings. For example, the Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not open to mankind (only those classed as "Muslim"); and as far as I am aware no-one resides in the Mosque. If it is argued they did reside there in the past but not now, then there is no warrant for this in AQ. Not surprisingly, some commentators regard AMAH as referring to the sanctuary and/or Mecca as a whole. In terms of 'act/institution of SJD' the terms "akifu/devotee/resident" and "baadi/bedouin/visitor" would require explanation.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Ashraf

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #104 on: November 05, 2012, 11:08:50 PM »
22:25 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and al masjid al haram which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.

This verse causes some problems for the 'institution/act/place of SJD' understandings. For example, the Sacred Mosque in Mecca is not open to mankind (only those classed as "Muslim"); and as far as I am aware no-one resides in the Mosque. If it is argued they did reside there in the past but not now, then there is no warrant for this in AQ. Not surprisingly, some commentators regard AMAH as referring to the sanctuary and/or Mecca as a whole. In terms of 'act/institution of SJD' the terms "akifu/devotee/resident" and "baadi/bedouin/visitor" would require explanation.


Dear bro Wakas,


Imho, there is no issue about AMAH as the location or in my rendering "the restricted service center" (or they might be other better phrase to describe) because:


1. "those who concealed كَفَرُو and obstruct وَيَصُدُّو" is really happening now in terms of promoting wrong location of mekkah/masjid/kaabah, as well promoting wrong understanding about Hajj and its associated rituals, which go against the path of Allah.


2. AMAH can smoothly meant as public service center to mankind at that particular ABAH (Al-bayt Al-Haram) because people of different faith, inside/outside ABAH should be able to came there and get their livestock supply distribution (which is available in abundant) during HAJJ (Overcoming) period. HAJJ among others mean "overcoming the restricted wild life hunting period with alternative food supply which is livestock".


3. It was made known to people inside/outside/surrounding ABAH about prophet Ibrahim campaign, not to hunt wild life for few months in a year. They came to AMAH to participate by contributing for some as well consuming for some. From therewith the words of Allah and the believe in god spread to the entire region.


4. Off course if they came from far (baadi/traveller), they need to stay for few days, erect their tents and stay surrounding the service center (masjid). Prophet Ibrahim saw, is welcoming people from all kind of beliefs to the service center because he was entrusted with the task to preach God laws. Words of Allah spread from this center.


5. "Akif" imho here is the one who stay close and inside the service center eg. especially to the poor traveler, as well the administration team, that need to work hard to manage the situation throughout the hajj period. There must be a proper management headed by Prophet Ibrahim saw and its support team. Subsequently during the time of prophet Muhammad, this center was also managed/controlled by polytheist/disbeliever mixed up with wrongdoings as time goes by.


There's nothing holy about AMAH. This hajj things must be managed from the command center (AMAH). It will not happen smooth without proper management in place.


Peace,
Ashraf

Mazhar

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2012, 02:51:20 AM »
Mazhar, why are you asking me to translate 22:25 when I have already done so in my article?

See: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
Salam Wakas.

You have reproduced earlier translation, there masjid-al-haram gives the perception only of a location-a place. My request was this:

Quote
Please translate it by putting "invioable time" therein. Thanks.

Wakas

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #106 on: November 07, 2012, 11:26:56 AM »
salaam Ashraf,

I agree with the gist of what you are saying, however I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the restricted service center". If it is a building, then one should insert this understanding into the masjid article and AMAH article and see what results.

I assume it would result in similar problems, as listed for "the sacred mosque" for example, see below:

Quote
'The Sacred Mosque' fares most poorly in 17:1, 2:142-150, 2:217, 9:28, and relatively poorly in 2:196, 22:25, 9:19. Also, please note that traditional commentators (e.g. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas) frequently switch their understanding of AMAH depending on verse, e.g. it can mean 'the sacred site/area of prostration' in 17:1, 'kaaba (cuboid)' in 2:144/2:149/2:150, 'the sanctuary / Mecca' in 2:196, 2:217, 22:25, 9:28. Usually, when one forces an incorrect understanding into AQ it will  result in inconsistency/variance/contradiction, see the important test of 4:82. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.

    'the restriced/inviolable act of SJD/compliance' and 'the inviolable institution of SJD/obedience' fare most poorly in 17:1, 2:196, and relatively poorly in 2:142-150, 22:25, 9:19, 9:28. Since these two are novel understandings there has been little analytical discussion about them. If the problems discussed in this work can be answered then it is recommended for those advocating such a view to put forth their answers.


#####

salaam mazhar,

I assume you say that because of the use of "akif" (devotee/resident) and "baadi" (bedouin/traveller). However, "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is enforced over an area, and in this area, there would be those resident in it and those travelling to it.
See the article for explanation by analogy, e.g.

"To better understand what is meant, an analogy may help: "the inviolable time of SJD" can be likened to the term "the summer holidays", the former takes place during the inviolable months of ABCD/etc and the latter during the summer months of June/July/August/etc (in the Northern hemisphere), and the term can be used in a wide variety of ways, e.g. a person can say: "I am working in the summer holidays", "I am looking forward to the summer holidays", "I will meet you in the summer holidays", "The summer holidays are my favourite time of the year", "I try to make the most out of the summer holidays" etc. They are slightly different aspects of the same time-period/event. Note how the term has time as well as event connotations, and this is the same for "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement". "

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

ayman

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #107 on: November 07, 2012, 08:37:56 PM »
Peace brother Wakas,

"To better understand what is meant, an analogy may help: "the inviolable time of SJD" can be likened to the term "the summer holidays", the former takes place during the inviolable months of ABCD/etc and the latter during the summer months of June/July/August/etc (in the Northern hemisphere), and the term can be used in a wide variety of ways, e.g. a person can say: "I am working in the summer holidays", "I am looking forward to the summer holidays", "I will meet you in the summer holidays", "The summer holidays are my favourite time of the year", "I try to make the most out of the summer holidays" etc. They are slightly different aspects of the same time-period/event. Note how the term has time as well as event connotations, and this is the same for "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement". "

The point is that your translation as "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is self-contradictory. What your translation is saying is that it is OK to not obey/acknowledge and instead disobey/reject outside that time. I hope that you can see this major logical problem.

You may try to use the "inviolable full-moons" as an analogy but this is a false analogy since in the case of "the inviolable full-moons" there is no act of obedience/acknowledgement inherently associated with the timing device of full-moon.

I hope that we don't go on and on discussing very small details while missing the biggest glaring logical issue.

Peace,

Ayman

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2012, 03:39:55 AM »
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَيَصُدُّونَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ الَّذِي جَعَلْنَاهُ لِلنَّاسِ سَوَاءً الْعَاكِفُ فِيهِ وَالْبَادِ وَمَن يُرِدْ فِيهِ بِإِلْحَادٍ بِظُلْمٍ نُذِقْهُ مِنْ عَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ

Please translate it by putting "invioable time" therein. Thanks.

Quote
salaam mazhar,

I assume you say that because of the use of "akif" (devotee/resident) and "baadi" (bedouin/traveller). However, "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is enforced over an area, and in this area, there would be those resident in it and those travelling to it.
See the article for explanation by analogy, e.g.

"To better understand what is meant, an analogy may help: "the inviolable time of SJD" can be likened to the term "the summer holidays", the former takes place during the inviolable months of ABCD/etc and the latter during the summer months of June/July/August/etc (in the Northern hemisphere), and the term can be used in a wide variety of ways, e.g. a person can say: "I am working in the summer holidays", "I am looking forward to the summer holidays", "I will meet you in the summer holidays", "The summer holidays are my favourite time of the year", "I try to make the most out of the summer holidays" etc. They are slightly different aspects of the same time-period/event. Note how the term has time as well as event connotations, and this is the same for "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement". "

My request is only to please put, whatever is the philosophy of your concept, in the translation of Ayah to see what it in turn yields.

Wakas

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Re: New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2012, 05:55:35 AM »
peace brother Ayman,

The point is that your translation as "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement" is self-contradictory. What your translation is saying is that it is OK to not obey/acknowledge and instead disobey/reject outside that time. I hope that you can see this major logical problem.

You may try to use the "inviolable full-moons" as an analogy but this is a false analogy since in the case of "the inviolable full-moons" there is no act of obedience/acknowledgement inherently associated with the timing device of full-moon.

You claim it is a false analogy, but there are regulations in place during this time. In fact, your wording gives it away when you say "...inherently associated with the timing device of full-moon.". Not with "full-moon" but yes with "inviolable full-moons".

You claim my translation is self-contradictory (I note how you are re-wording the alleged "contradiction" with each following reply you give) but once again, there is no contradiction. Firstly, there is no implication of what you said in the understanding of "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement' (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months)", it is simply what this special time-period is/was known as.
Secondly, the occurrences of AMAH clearly suggest something delimited.
And lastly, what you said can be applied to your understanding, i.e. your translation is saying if in an institution of any kind, other than one related to "government", it is ok to violate it, which is of course a nonsense deduction.


Quote from: Ayman
I hope that we don't go on and on discussing very small details while missing the biggest glaring logical issue.

I can understand why you'd prefer to focus on a fictitious "contradiction" rather than answering the questions/problems I pose for your understanding. You have avoided multiple times now.

My approach is relatively simple, if there are multiple options, put the evidence on the table for each option, then weigh/consider it, see which option is strongest etc. If you prefer not to put evidence on the table for your view, that's up to you.



#####


peace Mazhar,

A simple insertion of my translation into the verse would easily satisfy your request, see below:

22:25 Surely, those who have rejected/concealed and hinder from the path of God and the inviolable time of acknowledgement which We made for mankind, equal are the devotee/attached/resident in it and the bedouin/visitor/traveller, and whoever intends/wishes in it deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste from painful retribution.


I hope this is not another incidence of you making a statement, but no actual point of contention WITH evidence.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org