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New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?

Started by Wakas, October 07, 2012, 07:24:11 AM

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SarahY

Prince/Ayisha

I think Wakas made a good point in terms of it not being a physical journey

QuoteNotably, in the same chapter, in 17:93, the messenger clearly implies he cannot ascend in the heaven/sky and is only a human. Not only does this rule out the physical journey/ascension theory, but implies if he were to ascend physically it would make him other than human which is the very opposite of Quran's message. Also see 6:35. Further, a physical journey has not been described using such terms in AQ elsewhere as far as I am aware, so we can safely rule out the physical journey option.
We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

Mazhar

Quote from: Wakas on October 08, 2012, 06:40:04 AM
salaam Mazhar,

Firstly, have you read the article? If you have, then you will have noted that I did not state nor imply the above. What you are saying would still be physical, as sister Ayisha pointed out.

Rather than discussing what I did not say, let's rather discuss what I actually said. This will be more beneficial.

Quotes from article:


You know I start only when I have read your article. Yousaid this

QuoteThe use of "bi" and "ila" in 17:1 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B. Since we have ruled out a physical journey, this only leaves a spiritual journey and/or vision/dream or some other understanding. The use of "night" may indicate during sleep, i.e. a dream/vision.

Spiritual journey, vision, dream or what Prince says astral projection, do not go by your words "God took his servant from A to B".
Timing is also mentioned "during the Night". Preposition "bi" means with, along with; preposition "Min" means the departure location and Preposition "Ila" means towards a location  which is the destination of the journey during the hours of night.

Purpose is also mentioned "لِنُرِيَهُ" "so that We might make him see with eyes".

Qur'aan is very comprehensive, and worded very guarding, since Allah knew people will try play with His words.

We are not discussing whether physical journey seems possible to someone or not according to one's present level of knowledge, but are discussing what is stated in the Arabic text.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Ayisha

Quote from: Mazhar on October 08, 2012, 12:06:24 PM
You know I start only when I have read your article. Yousaid this

Spiritual journey, vision, dream or what Prince says astral projection, do not go by your words "God took his servant from A to B".
Timing is also mentioned "during the Night". Preposition "bi" means with, along with; preposition "Min" means the departure location and Preposition "Ila" means towards a location  which is the destination of the journey during the hours of night.

Purpose is also mentioned "لِنُرِيَهُ" "so that We might make him see with eyes".

Qur'aan is very comprehensive, and worded very guarding, since Allah knew people will try play with His words.

We are not discussing whether physical journey seems possible to someone or not according to one's present level of knowledge, but are discussing what is stated in the Arabic text.

So if this was a physical journey Muhammed will have met God as the words imply/say God TOOK him, so God was WITH him physically and TOOK him physically, which is what you are saying.

:peace:
In the name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe,
The Compassionate, The Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Judgement!
You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help.
Guide us to the straight path,
The path of those You have favoured,
Not of those who have incurred Your wrath,
Nor of those who have gone astray.

Wakas

salaam all,

Quote from: Prince on October 08, 2012, 07:21:29 AM
Whether it refers to muhammed or moses thats another point of discussion.

This issue is addressed in the article.


Quote from: MazharPurpose is also mentioned "لِنُرِيَهُ" "so that We might make him see with eyes".

You seem to claim it is with physical eyes, and whilst this is correct generally, the exact same word is used for dream also:

When God shows them to you as being few in your dream... [8:43]


The likely reason for the usage is that even in our dreams, generally speaking we use the eyes to see, or at least I do, I dont know about others.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Mazhar

QuoteYou seem to claim it is with physical eyes, and whilst this is correct generally, the exact same word is used for dream also:

When God shows them to you as being few in your dream... [8:43]

Salamun Alaika,

The likely reason for the usage is that even in our dreams, generally speaking we use the eyes to see, or at least I do, I dont know about others.


The period of sleep relating to dreams is called Rapid Eye Movement sleep--supporting your using of eyes when dreaming.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Wakas

Quote from: Mazhar on October 08, 2012, 04:23:08 PM
There is difference in both. When this verb is used not in real terms, it takes two objects as in 8:43-doubly transitive. When in real terms it is singly transitive.

The period of sleep relating to dreams is called Rapid Eye Movement sleep--supporting your using of eyes when dreaming.

Interesting claim, however...

1) Can you provide evidence that dreams are only possible with rapid eye movement (REM) sleep?

2) Can you provide evidence that the rapid eye movement is due to the sleeper using their eyes to "see" in their dream?

3) Does your theory for when the verb is and is not "real terms" hold for ALL its occurrences?

4) Does your theory only apply to this verb or others also? If so, can you elaborate.

5) According to you, what are the two objects in 8:43 for this verb?

6) According to you, what is the object of this verb in 17:1?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Mazhar

Quote from: Wakas on October 08, 2012, 04:54:49 PM
Interesting claim, however...

1) Can you provide evidence that dreams are only possible with rapid eye movement (REM) sleep?

2) Can you provide evidence that the rapid eye movement is due to the sleeper using their eyes to "see" in their dream?


3) Does your theory for when the verb is and is not "real terms" hold for ALL its occurrences?

4) Does your theory only apply to this verb or others also? If so, can you elaborate.

5) According to you, what are the two objects in 8:43 for this verb?

6) According to you, what is the object of this verb in 17:1?

Please study about REM sleep. Much reasearch has since been made on this. It will be available in all encylopedias on line.

Rest, I incorrectly quoted about it but before I corrected it perhaps your response went up.

The point was to indicate that when this form IV  is used to see-expereince something during sleep it is specifically mentioned. It is same [fi manami, fil manami] in 8:43 and 37:102. Sorry for inconvenience.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Mazhar

Quote5) According to you, what are the two objects in 8:43 for this verb?

6) According to you, what is the object of this verb in 17:1?

I was preparing reply for Ayisha, your querry will help.

In 8:43 two objects are الكاف second person, masculine, singular, accusative state; first object and هم is the second object; third person; masculine; plural in accusative state. Allah the Exalted is the Subject of verb, and verb is form IV, masculine, singular, mood: indicative.

In 17:1 لِنُرِيَهُ red is the first object, third person, masculine, singular, in accusative state referring back to sincere allegiant of Him the Exalted. Second Object of verb is elided as manifestly indicated by the following prepositional phrase.

[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Mazhar

Quote from: Ayisha on October 08, 2012, 12:42:54 PM
So if this was a physical journey Muhammed will have met God as the words imply/say God TOOK him, so God was WITH him physically and TOOK him physically, which is what you are saying.

:peace:

Salamun alaiki,

Strictly adhering to the accepted principles of translating a text, and rules of Arabic grammar-morphology and syntax laid by learned Grammarians, let me try.

Allah the Exalted the Infinitely Glorious, Whose approval is the focus of all effort, is the One Who arranged the travel along with His sincere Allegiant-Muhammad [Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] on a journey during some part of night from within Al Masjid al Haram-the Sacred Mosque around Ka'aba in Mecca, towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque.
That Mosque is the One whose surroundings We have perpetuated and blessed.
The purpose of ascending him [Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam] in the direction towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque was that We might show him visually the biggest sign from the Miscellany of Our Demonstrative Signs-Physical realm.
This is a fact that He the Exalted  is the One Who is eternally the Hearer [of what is said, at whatever frequency] and is of Vision [everything/act is in His focus]. [17:01]

أَسْرَى is a transitive Verb. It needs an Object. It is elided-not mentioned. What was that object used to carry him, it is not yet known-UFO.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

kaamil

There were so many contradiction in the notion of physical journey. The notion cannot sit down in the heart of critical minded people. If it denote a physical journey why at nihgt? Then will this notion not contradict verse 17:93.   
no attempt must be made to enslave man mentally, it is his destiny to be free.