Author Topic: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)  (Read 6670 times)

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 02:14:36 AM »
You asked:
How does one measure grammatical correctness?

I answered:
intra-Quran comparison

You further asked:
What exactly do you mean by this? The Quran nowhere makes any mention of grammar. How on earth can you make an 'intra-quran' comparison? Please give a demonstration

I answered:
It's simple. By "intra-Quran comparison" I mean comparing the same word/structure for its occurrences.

I will provide an example: let's say someone comes along and says word X is a verb in a certain Quran verse, yet the exact same word form is a noun in all its other occurrences. Thus, according to Quran's own internal pattern/system, there is little/no evidence for his claim, and therefore it may be expected for that person to provide reason/evidence why he claims the exact same word form is a verb here not a noun.

You further asked:
How is this Quranic exactly? Does the Quran declare any word to be a noun or a verb? What makes this reasoning Quranic?

I answered:
I would prefer if you phrased your question in one succinct manner, but in any case.... "Quranic" as I already defined "of/from or pertaining to The Quran" is rather self-explanatory. If my answer is from/of Quran, then it is "Quranic". For example, if you ask someone "what is zakat" and the person replies with references from Traditional Hadith, then the person's answer is not "Quranic". If the person replies citing all occurrences of zakat in Quran then his answer is "Quranic".

The Quran does not declare a word to be a noun or verb etc just like the following sentence does not either, yet it contains noun and verb: Jim walked to the shops and bought a Pepsi to drink later.

As far as I'm aware, all languages in the world have nouns and verbs, but perhaps you know something I do not. If so, please enlighten us.
If you are uncomfortable using the terms "noun" and "verb" then we can simply use "the way in which the word is used", i.e. if someone says it is a "doing word / action" in this occurrence but the same word form is not a "doing word / action" elsewhere, then one may expect that person to provide a reason for this, if they can.
If you are happy for someone to use the exact same word differently in any occurrence, without reason/evidence, or nouns/verbs do not exist in Quran, then simply state so for all to see.

You further asked:
Nouns and verbs are categorisations which DO NOT come from the Quran. Therefore, it cannot be QURANIC grammar unless you use 'pertaining to Quran' argument.

If this is what you meant, then ANYTHING ANYONE says about the grammar of the Quran must be Quranic grammar. Would that be fair? Or is it just what YOU say is 'quranic grammar'?


#####

You will note that your one question, then leads you to ask many further questions.

Please keep your questions well-defined and concise.

#####

To end your question 2, I will answer the remaining questions you had:

Quote from: Farouk
If this is what you meant, then ANYTHING ANYONE says about the grammar of the Quran must be Quranic grammar. Would that be fair?

If it is based on intra-Quran comparison, yes.

Quote from: Farouk
Or is it just what YOU say is 'quranic grammar'?

No.


Now, please move onto your next question. Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 07:00:08 AM »
Quote
You will note that your one question, then leads you to ask many further questions.

Yes of course. This is an academic exercise. I need to get explicit answers to your method in order to show your subjectivites in engaging with the text. Hope you don't mind.

Quote
If it is based on intra-Quran comparison, yes

Contradiction.

You said in the very last post, "Quranic" as I already defined "of/from or pertaining to The Quran". What Aidid and Simple do most certainly pertains to the Quran. Is their work 'Quranic' or not? If they are,then why you do deem them as 'interpretations'?

Quote
Now, please move onto your next question. Thanks.

Sorry I can't. I need to see what your actual answer is and so far, all I'm getting are contradictions.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2012, 10:09:23 AM »
Contradictions (plural) you say? Odd, considering the first time you've used the word "contradiction" in this thread was in your last post only.



You said:
If this is what you meant, then ANYTHING ANYONE says about the grammar of the Quran must be Quranic grammar. Would that be fair?

I said:
If it is based on intra-Quran comparison, yes.

You said:
Contradiction.

You said in the very last post, "Quranic" as I already defined "of/from or pertaining to The Quran". What Aidid and Simple do most certainly pertains to the Quran. Is their work 'Quranic' or not? If they are,then why you do deem them as 'interpretations'?

#####

Firstly, you specifically asked about "Quranic grammar".

Secondly, I cannot comment on "Aidid" and "Simple" in such general terms.

Thirdly, your questions imply you are equating the terms "Quranic" and "intra-Quran comparison".


As I said, please move onto your next question, rather than asking multiple follow-up questions. You've asked 9 follow-ups so far.







All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2012, 12:22:21 AM »
Contradictions (plural) you say? Odd, considering the first time you've used the word "contradiction" in this thread was in your last post only.

Oh you've been contradicting yourself since you started using the phrase 'quranic grammar' etc. This is simply one of the contradictions.

Quote
Firstly, you specifically asked about "Quranic grammar".
Secondly, I cannot comment on "Aidid" and "Simple" in such general terms.
Thirdly, your questions imply you are equating the terms "Quranic" and "intra-Quran comparison".

Why can't you? If the work of Aidid and Simple PERTAINS to the Quran then by your own definition, these are Quranic works. Aidid wrote a book about Quranic concepts and Simple posts in this forum about clearly Quranic topics. Surely their works are Quranic?

Are your works 'quranic'? If so, why?
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2012, 01:57:49 AM »
You've now asked 13 follow-up questions. I have given some leeway and allowed multiple follow-ups, but 13 is too much.

However, in your last "follow-up" question, you brought up something we haven't discussed, so I will take that as your next question (your third). I will answer shortly.

Quote from: Farouk
Are your works 'quranic'? If so, why?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 02:13:22 AM »
Why are any number of follow up questions 'too much'? Are we going on a point scoring system now? The objective is the discussion of your philosophy of tafseer. One would think any number of questions would be acceptable for such an important issue.

Also note, while you complain a lot, you have hardly answered any of my inquiries. My next question is about what you consider as 'evidence', based on your statement in my group. You told the 'nisa arent women' camp to band together and write an article. Once the 'quranic grammar' issue is resolved, I would like to explore how you will evaluate that 'evidence' :)
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 03:24:59 AM »
I dont mind answering any number of questions, but our agreed upon format was one Q&A at a time, back and forth, not one Q then many follow-up Qs.... which prevents the other side from moving onto their next Q.

In any case, please clarify what is your next question. Thanks.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 03:52:47 AM »
I'm not through with the second question yet, sorry. I have asked you, given that Aidid and Simple opine view PERTAINING to the Quran, would you call their views Quranic?
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 05:39:29 AM »
Your original question was:
How does one measure grammatical correctness?

And now you ask:
I have asked you, given that Aidid and Simple opine view PERTAINING to the Quran, would you call their views Quranic?


Any lay reader can tell they are different questions addressing different things. So, once again, I request you to state your 3rd question. If you do not, I will use the above as your 3rd question. And if you feel that is unfair, feel free to do the same to me after I ask you 9 follow-up questions  ;D


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (part 2)
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2012, 06:05:31 AM »
Wakas are you playing some kind of game? The question is very simple and yet you refuse to answer. This is an adult conversation about what you (hopefully) consider a sacred act - writing about a divine text. I am now probing your view about what is QURANIC. You have given a definition using PERTINENCE as an indicator. Both Aidid and Simple write PERTAINING to the Quran.

Are their writings Quranic or not?

Call it whatever number you want. If you're afraid to answer, just let me know. I can see we're very close to undermining your pretence of authority by how you keep avoiding the question. Let me know so I can stop wasting my time. Thanks.
Farouk A. Peru