Author Topic: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)  (Read 14304 times)

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #110 on: November 02, 2012, 02:13:47 PM »
Simply saying"I see it as an organic process" doesn't actually explain the contradiction.

Sure, that's why I said a LOAD of other things which you did not or quite possibly cannot process. Of course it's more than fine, I wasn't expecting you to, we don't think along similar lines.

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Contradicts what you said earlier, quote: "They may have been, yes."

How so?

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I'll highlight another problem for you. You claim people who are ill need to get well, but what do they do when they get well according to your understanding. They obviously try to establish/grow His system in the world, meaning they will never do the part in green. Unless, your view is Quran suggests they fast when they are ill for example.

Sure, sawm is for taqwa (2/183) and taqwa is the opposite of fujr (91/7-10) so why can't sawm be used for healing?

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As I said, I will leave these problems for you to resolve, next question:

They're problems for you maybe which is none of my concern.

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Wakas: Incorrectly imply the verse says ?continue with the umra? when the Arabic actually uses a perfect verb, meaning an action done/completed, meaning ?whoever benefitted/enjoyed with the umra?, thus there can be no ?(that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression)? as you allege.

Please explain. If you do not believe in perfect/imperfect verbs, that's fine, simply say so, and state there is no way to determine this etc or similar.

Because you see the umrah as a SINGLE process. I told you before, quantify zakat for me. Obviously you can't do it becauwse you think its linear terms. I told you, its cut and paste of dictionaries and grammar.

And with your robotic use of language, of course you think in binary terms. Talking to you is like talking to a computer , you only think along binary values and in a linnear process. Whoever benefitted with the umrah talks about the fertilisation enjoyed by those who invoked the progress. It's an organic process, as I said.


#####

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It's not slander, it is simply a logical deduction of what you said and never contested:

Not many people can do it means its highly improbably to be done? THis is POOR deduction. I don't believe this is the case. I believe anyone with the level of the ibrahmic personality WILL achieve it. For such a person , the probability is 100 percent.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #111 on: November 02, 2012, 02:53:42 PM »
How so?

PRC.



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Sure, sawm is for taqwa (2/183) and taqwa is the opposite of fujr (91/7-10) so why can't sawm be used for healing?

Thanks for clarifying Quran is suggesting fasting when ill, in your view, with no guidance whatsoever on what type of illness etc.

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Whoever benefitted with the umrah talks about the fertilisation enjoyed by those who invoked the progress.

That's not what you said on your blog. No comment on the perfect/imperfect verb point?

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Not many people can do it means its highly improbably to be done? THis is POOR deduction. I don't believe this is the case. I believe anyone with the level of the ibrahmic personality WILL achieve it. For such a person , the probability is 100 percent.

You know of no such person in the history of the world, post-Quran. As I said "low probability".
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2012, 03:11:27 PM »
PRC.

I did. If you can't explain, stop wasting my time.


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Thanks for clarifying Quran is suggesting fasting when ill, in your view, with no guidance whatsoever on what type of illness etc.

Np.

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That's not what you said on your blog. No comment on the perfect/imperfect verb point?

Sure, that's why they're called notes.

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You know of no such person in the history of the world, post-Quran. As I said "low probability".

I know very few people and I don't inquire their activities. The Quran doesn't tell me to be a busybody like maybe it tells you.
Farouk A. Peru

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #113 on: November 03, 2012, 12:16:20 AM »
I have now answered all your points here: http://quranology.wordpress.com/2012/11/03/dialogue-with-wakas-on-2196/

I have also decide to DELETE your comment from my blog as I believe that your toxic presence should only be tolerated if you're willing to play fair. As such, you are NOT. Judging from the tone of your comments on 2/196 which were nauseating to read, you're a BULLY and bullies when challenged, are COWARDS.


 
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #114 on: November 03, 2012, 08:18:37 AM »
I have now answered all your points here: http://quranology.wordpress.com/2012/11/03/dialogue-with-wakas-on-2196/

I note how in your blog you have re-worded EVERY answer you gave on this forum. Deceptive. Oh, and you add fomob.

 ;D

Let's review what you said for the rest (bold mine):

Quote from: Farouk
7) Incorrectly imply the verse says ?continue with the umra? when the Arabic actually uses a perfect verb, meaning an action done/completed, meaning ?whoever benefitted/enjoyed with the umra?, thus there can be no ?(that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression)? as you allege.

Once again, this is not a translation. Furthermore, you seem to think this is a single process. The umrah here refers to fertilisation of our acts towards the challenge of establishing masjid al-haram. It would be very unintelligent for us to quantify this. The perfect verb tamatta3a signifies the current process of fertilisation which happens in levels.

8 ) Halfway through the verse you switch ?al hajj? to be in reference to challenging oppression, which is not mentioned in the context.

If context is the next verse, you?d be right. However, I tend to read entire chapters and texts as contributive to the wider meanings of a particular aya. The ism ma3rifa of the hajj refers to establishment of masjid al-haram. Masajid are places which counter oppression by iqamul qist (7/29).

9) For sake of argument, if we assume it is indeed about ??continue with fertilisation towards the challenge (that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression) by keep contributing hadya/progressions. ? ? but the Arabic actually says ??then what is EASY of the progression? ? I never knew challenging oppression would be easy. Can we assume your view is Quran is saying only do the easy stuff when it comes to combating oppression? If it?s difficult just leave it?

Firstly, I?d just like to say your sarcastic and rude tone has no place in a quranist discourse. This is compounded with the fact that your own analysis of masjid al-haram is fraught with shortcomings and even deems Quranic elements as ?passing?. I suggest a thorough self-examination. Ask yourself why the hostility?

It also appears you have a severe reading difficulty. You yourself said ?what is easy OF THE PROGRESSION? then deduce that Quran implies ?challenging oppression would be easy?. This is a terrible deduction. How does progression transform into oppression? Progressions here are contributive towards the goal. The goal itself may not be immediately attainable but progress towards that goal is.

10) You say ?If he is unable to make progress during the period of challenge? but the Arabic simply says ?so whoever couldn?t find?. Let us know what you translate ?yajid (find)? as.

Yes, ?yajid? means find but find what? Please read in context. The flow of the aya is talking about the hadya which are progressions towards the goal.

11) Since you view ?the challenge? as establishing God?s system in the world then the vast majority would not be able to establish it, thus the period you allude to would be their lifetime, yet you now imply ?the challenge? is a finite period or periods. Please explain.

I never said or implied any such thing. Your question was about the vast majority being able to do it. The hajj in this context is a finite period which ends when one?s connected people (ahl) are in the presence of masjid-al haram.

12) I?d be very interested in hearing your logic behind having 3 periods of fasting during the challenge and a number of periods during the times for people. And why this is a ?formula for perfect social living?? And if you have time, explain your obscure reference to 2:189 and timings and how they?d be determined practically.

At the moment, ?3′ is not something I?m sure of as anymore as new developments have emerged. I am sure that fasting is involved as fasting to a certain point (that of shahru ramadhan) is essential to build spiritual energy. This is during the time when the challenge is undertaken. However, in a lax period (as per 2/187) , the fasts can be regular fasts (as per 2/183-184).

These fasts are withdrawals from consumption and spending for the poor. As such, it will be bring about a harmonious society.

13) You seemingly miss out the Arabic when it says ?when you returned? -please explain.

In the context, it refers to when people have returned to normal living from engaging with the challenge.

14) You claim ?3asharah kaamilah? means ?perfect social living? with NQCR, NQE, NCADR. The same word ?3asharah? appears in 5:89 and using your translation would render it nonsensical. Further, the grammar of these two words in their construction would need explained in any alternative understanding. As it stand you have not.

As you have admitted yourself a subjective meaning, ?nonsensical? is relative to your paradigm of tafseer. I see 3asharah masakeen as the society of the stagnant people. That is to say, the social class who are unable to progress.

15) The Arabic is ?al masjid al haram? which implies you are translating ?masjid? as ?system?. Is this how you translate ?masjid? elsewhere? And therefore what about ?sujud??

Masjid is a place of submission and thereby projecting a system of actions through its obedience to laws. Sadly, your inability to percieve beyond a literal reading hampers your understanding a lot.

16) Strictly speaking, the preposition ?fee (in)? is not there in the Arabic prior to ?al masjid al haram?.

Yes, these are notes which are in English. They would not be coherent in a word for word translation.

17) You translate ?haram? as ?sanctified?, but this makes little sense elsewhere, e.g. 2:194, 5:97, 9:5, 9:36 amongst others. If we combine this with your translation of ?shahr? as ?situation/condition? or ?obvious state?, then what are the 12 obvious states with God, and 4 of them are sanctified (see 9:36)? If they are indeed obvious, it should be easy for you to tell us what they are, and/or the logic behind them, as per Quran.

Haram cannot be translated with one word. It could be sanctified or sanctioned.  There are no 12 or 4 obvious states. I don?t believe in these numbers at all. ?Ithna 3ashara? refers to the two ends of society which come together, arba3a I am unable to articulate at present but I would venture with stability.

Re: Q7
Ahh, so you admit there is such a thing as perfect verbs. Interesting. Previously, when discussing verbs and grammar, you said:

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Maybe for those who uncritically accept this form stuff (and STILL claim the Quran is their furqan, lol) . I don't. Where's your Quranic proof for this by the way.

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Farouk: "How does one measure grammatical correctness?"

Wakas: Intra-Quran comparison.

Farouk: What exactly do you mean by this? The Quran nowhere makes any mention of grammar. How on earth can you make an 'intra-quran' comparison?

Wakas: It's simple. By "intra-Quran comparison" I mean comparing the same word/structure for its occurrences.

Farouk: How is this Quranic exactly? Does the Quran declare any word to be a noun or a verb? What makes this reasoning Quranic?

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I was speaking of showing words to be nouns or verbs! No intra-Quranic comparison can help you determine noun or verbs because the the Quran DOES NOT MENTION nouns or verbs. Do you understand that because that's a very crucial point - it is LINGUISTS who tel you about nouns and verbs. See the difference - one is THE QURAN, the other is NOT the Quran. It's amazing I need to point out the difference. You have CONFLATED the Quran with linguistic resources....wowwww

 ;D



Quote from: Farouk
I have also decide to DELETE your comment from my blog as I believe that your toxic presence should only be tolerated if you're willing to play fair. As such, you are NOT. Judging from the tone of your comments on 2/196 which were nauseating to read, you're a BULLY and bullies when challenged, are COWARDS.

Farouk: "NOT ONCE did I delete your posts..." and "I NEVER suppressed your posts."

Until now. Glad that's clear.

And lol@toxic presence. Here is something you can try Farouk, ask one of your online contacts/friends/etc to read the discussions we've had on this forum, and get them to answer 3 simple Qs:

1) who made more derogatory remarks: Farouk or Wakas?
2) who made more false/misleading/baseless statements and logical fallacies: Farouk or Wakas?
3) who made more slanderous statements: Farouk or Wakas?

And then ask them who is more toxic, hehe.  ;D
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #115 on: November 03, 2012, 08:28:27 AM »
Re: Q9

You dont actually answer what I asked, and add fomob:

Farouk: You yourself said ?what is easy OF THE PROGRESSION? then deduce that Quran implies ?challenging oppression would be easy?.  This is a terrible deduction.

No, I did not deduce Quran implies that. I was actually referring to the logical consequence of YOUR view, but I'm glad you described it as "a terrible deduction" as I couldn't agree more.  ;D

Let me make it real simple for you, I said: "For sake of argument, if we assume it is indeed about ??continue with fertilisation towards the challenge (that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression) by keep contributing hadya/progressions. ? ? but the Arabic actually says ??then what is EASY of the progression?


So, simply slot in what the Arabic actually says into your understanding and see the mess that results. Then answer what I actually asked.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #116 on: November 03, 2012, 08:41:36 AM »
Re: Q11

Your answer doesn't actually make sense. You first said:
?We are to complete the challenge and fertilisation for Allah, which is to establish and grow His system in the world."

Due to the low probability of the above, it would likely take a person their entire lifetime to actually establish and grow His system in the world, but in your answer to Q11 you now say "The hajj in this context is a finite period which ends when one?s connected people (ahl) are in the presence of masjid-al haram." and previously defined AMAH as "the space where submisson to Allah's laws are performed and thus the place becomes sanctified."

So it only ends when there is a "space where submission to Allah's laws are performed" and as I said, and you indirectly admitted, very few would actually achieve this, thus finite periods does not make sense, especially more than one! Please explain and give a practical example of someone undergoing hajj according to you with finite periods (i.e. more than one).
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

abdalquran

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #117 on: November 04, 2012, 12:42:33 AM »
I note how in your blog you have re-worded EVERY answer you gave on this forum. Deceptive. Oh, and you add fomob.

LOL, as I said, your disclaimer isn't worth tuppence. Unlike your self-proclaimed greatest contribution to quranist development, word experiences aren't fixed. They are ORGANIC, they grow with time (well, not yours but normal people's). Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand that, you need the word 'dictionary' on the title page to make you to accept anything :P



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Re: Q7
Ahh, so you admit there is such a thing as perfect verbs. Interesting. Previously, when discussing verbs and grammar, you said:

Yes and like your quranic analyis for poor old NUH, you missed the key word...UNCRITICAL. Word forms can be useful when they produce coherence in meaning.  It's ironic too because if a PRL entry was made about YOU, UNCRITICAL would be the first meaning there  :rotfl:



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Farouk: "NOT ONCE did I delete your posts..." and "I NEVER suppressed your posts."

Until now. Glad that's clear.

Of course. I only extend cordial relations to people with honest discussions. People who are  RUDE, AUTHORITARIAN, UNABLE (or unwilling) to understand simple sentences and most all THEMSELVES SUPPRESSIVE are not worth the bother. The Q tells us to judge fairly between naas (4/58) so if I am not treated with the same courtesy, why would I extend the same to you? Your 'comprehensive' and 'Quranic' claims have now been flushed down the toilet and your authoritarian pretensions would be FINISHED when you link your work to any criticism.

And come on, look at your comprehension skils. I was shaking my head in disbelief. For God's sake, look at this:
For sake of argument, if we assume it is indeed about ??continue with fertilisation towards the challenge (that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression) by keep contributing hadya/progressions. ? ? but the Arabic actually says ??then what is EASY of the progression? ? I never knew challenging oppression would be easy. Can we assume your view is Quran is saying only do the easy stuff when it comes to combating oppression? If it?s difficult just leave it?

If it says 'what is easy of the PROGRESSION/HADY, you understand it to mean challenging OPPRESSION is easy? This discussion is a complete waste of time. Your comprehension skills are about pre-school level.  How can any productive discussions take place when you can't even comprehend simple sentences? I know now why you like one word sentences (like 'contradiction.' and 'deceptive.'). You probably can't process much else.


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And lol@toxic presence. Here is something you can try Farouk, ask one of your online contacts/friends/etc to read the discussions we've had on this forum, and get them to answer 3 simple Qs:

1) who made more derogatory remarks: Farouk or Wakas?
2) who made more false/misleading/baseless statements and logical fallacies: Farouk or Wakas?
3) who made more slanderous statements: Farouk or Wakas
And then ask them who is more toxic, hehe.  ;D

The events which resulted in me BEING here to begin with STARTED with people's complaints about YOU. Your obnoxious way of speaking to people suggests you're some kind of authority (even though you can't even process a complete aya, you need to chop it up and process only two words at a time like a lame blender). Then you cuss out people in my group (the warning is recorded), you harass others including myself (warning is recorded) and you got banned from QRAC. Nice people don't get banned. So I think the polling is unnecessary. Even if I DID care about people's opinions, it's quite clear to me. But I don't. Your presence is toxic on MY blog. I like pleasant discussions and you are - like you are with digesting complex sentences - incapable of that.

The biggest expose about you is when you complained of being IGNORED. Really?...IGNORED? You think people are OBLIGED to engage with you? Just who the heck do you think you are? People have a right to discuss whatever they want without the benefit of your comments. At least they do in my groups. Here you can pretend to be the quranist Hitler and if you play it really cool, no one will know about your own flaws.

I'm done answering your inane questions. You may consider these discussions closed. And like the guy whose post you deleted said, you can have the last word :)
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #118 on: November 05, 2012, 05:23:50 AM »
Unlike your self-proclaimed greatest contribution to quranist development,

fomob

Is that all you've got left Farouk: ad-hominen?



Quote from: Farouk
Yes and like your quranic analyis for poor old NUH, you missed the key word...UNCRITICAL. Word forms can be useful when they produce coherence in meaning.  It's ironic too because if a PRL entry was made about YOU, UNCRITICAL would be the first meaning there

Thanks for finally admitting verbs exist, perfect/imperfect, and singular/plural words etc. Your double standards have been exposed. Further, you claim I am uncritical, yet this claim of yours was completely and utterly demolished by this post of mine and you did not rebut any point I made:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604455.msg311263#msg311263

Once again, you have been exposed.


Quote from: Farouk
Of course. I only extend cordial relations to people with honest discussions.

Once again, you have been exposed. Anyone can read our threads and see who made the derogatory/false/misleading/baseless/slanderous statements first, you or I.


I note how you did not answer my remarks about Q9 and Q11 in your reply above.
Once again, exposed.


Quote from: Farouk
Then you cuss out people in my group (the warning is recorded), you harass others including myself (warning is recorded)

cuss out? Another slanderous statement. Exposed.

Warning is recorded huh Farouk? lol. Then please quote it for everyone to see. You have my permission.



Quote from: Farouk
and you got banned from QRAC. Nice people don't get banned.


For those who do not know, yes I was banned from the facebook group above, for simply requesting Farouk to provide evidence of his repeated slander against me. One admin (not Farouk) messages me simply saying let it go and try to keep it positive yet never identified herself as admin (and I never even knew she was admin), so when I posted another request for evidence, I got banned. Simple.
If anyone here is a member of QRAC, you can verify this yourself (if the messages are still there). In any case, it is my Quranic right to speak out against an injustice and asking for evidence for slander is hardly an offence.

The fact that you bring this up shows you are grasping at straws, in an attempt to make more ad-hominen remarks.

Exposed.

Quote from: Farouk
I like pleasant discussions

Then dont make multiple slanderous/false/misleading/baseless/derogatory statements then. The evidence is here for all to see. Exposed.

Quote
The biggest expose about you is when you complained of being IGNORED. Really?...IGNORED? You think people are OBLIGED to engage with you? Just who the heck do you think you are? People have a right to discuss whatever they want without the benefit of your comments. At least they do in my groups. Here you can pretend to be the quranist Hitler and if you play it really cool, no one will know about your own flaws.

Complained about being ignored? What are you going on about? Please provide the quote with context or dont say anything at all.

"Quranist hitler"? lol.
Everyone can see you have been exposed Farouk. You've got nothing but ad-hominen left.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)
« Reply #119 on: November 10, 2012, 09:03:54 AM »
To conclude this analysis, my comments on the remaining answered questions are as follows. If no reply from Farouk is given within 30 days, this thread can be locked.


Re: Q12)
Farouk admits having an incomplete understanding of this aspect, which is fair enough. However, reconciling this may unhinge the rest of his understanding.
Claims he is sure of fasting being undertaken during the time when the challenge is undertaken, however, as previously said this time-period would likely be one's entire lifetime. He offers no explanation.

Re: Q13)
We can only assume here, that Farouk means "His system is established and grown in the world", which suffers from the same problems as previously stated.

Re: Q14)
Provides no evidence from Quran as initially asked. Interestingly he went from it meaning "perfect social living" to somehow implying a stagnant social class unable to progress.

Re: Q15)
Any understanding requires examination in its Quran occurrences. As yet, not done by Farouk.

Re: Q16)
My point being those interpreting Quran often imply certain words are in the Arabic when they are not. An interesting trait amongst "Quranists" is to criticise Traditional translations and tafsirs on this very point, but often neglect to highlight this when they do it themselves.

Re: Q17)
Farouk's reply would render his understanding of 9:36 similar to "indeed the number of situations/conditions with God is two ends of society which come together condition/situation in the kitab of God from the day/period He created the heavens and the earth, from/of them stability (are) sanctioned/sanctified (plural)". Whatever that means is anyone's guess. He does not offer any logical explanation.


#####


To conclude, I initially wrote my critique because so much of Farouk's post on 2:196 seemed unevidenced/impractical/illogical, and I had studied 2:196 for a mini-article I wrote.
Now that we have his replies to the critique, readers can weigh the evidence for themselves are consider whether his view is sound or not etc.

Unfortunately, a pattern amongst many interpreters of Quran (Traditionalists as well as Quranist) has been to apply an inconsistent method when trying to interpret it, which can and does lead to problems.
The key has and always will be to apply a robust/systematic method, that is at least somewhat falsifiable (i.e. test-able), to maximise one's chances of extracting the most accurate understanding.

With the multitude of information out there, trying to determine the sound from the unsound can prove difficult, however, if we stick with an evidence-based approach, like the scientific-world principally has, we will make leaps and bounds in our Quranic understandings, God-willing.

My approach can read here.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org