Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)

[abdalquran]

Clearly, I discussed evidence from Quran, CAD, other source, and reasoning etc, and if you used NONE to back-up what you write, that would damage credibility, that's what I actually said.

'evidence from Quran', great. WHO or what SOURCE determines the meanings of Quranic words? How does come with a 'new meaning' from Quran? Does Allah write a new footnote to accomodate his views? You use this phrase 'evidence from Quran' so carelessly so I'm not surprised why you won't go into it's deconstruction. 

I described my definition of 'hadya' in this very thread. Please tell me why you do NOT accept this. Is it 'quranic' or not. Thanks

It is becoming rather tedious for me to correct your false/misleading/baseless statements time and time again. From now on I will simply use: fomob (false or misleading or baseless).

If you cant be bothered keeping this discussion accurate/evidence-based, I dont see why I should waste my time having to correct/clarify

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My thoughts exactly about your 'critiques'. However, I have now written my criticisms to your articles and now await you to include them on your page Will you give the same rights that you DEMAND? We shall see....

[Wakas]

Next question:

Re: blog post 2:196
You said ?Once they are secure?.

Question: secure from what? Ideally, provide evidence of some kind.

[abdalquran]

secure from their psychological issues. For example if a person felt that this system isnt possible or fears the enemy more than Allah and he attains security from these issues.

[Wakas]

secure from their psychological issues. For example if a person felt that this system isnt possible or fears the enemy more than Allah and he attains security from these issues.

Your explanation contradicts what you wrote:

Quote from Farouk:

"Once they are secure*, they are continue with fertilisation towards the challenge (that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression) by keep contributing hadya/progressions."

*(i.e. overcome their "psychological issues" as explained by Farouk above) one example listed by you was "i see it as psychological issues related to the establishment of AMAH. Like some people may whine 'only a few people can do this, if that' despite Allah saying He guarantees victory a number of places." but there is no "continue" and "keep growing" and "keep contributing" as they weren't doing any of this previously as they deemed "only a few people can do this" hence did not do it.

Please try again, or re-word.

[abdalquran]

try thinking beyond your mono-dimensional pattern. Psychological issues are not one offs nor are they limited. This is a general command meant to cover the entire process in full.

I ask again: Will you link my critiques in your blog? Why do you keep avoiding this question? If there is ANY problem with my critique, please let me know.

[Wakas]

Your answer does not directly address what I highlight, my quote below:

....but there is no "continue" and "keep growing" and "keep contributing" as they weren't doing any of this previously as they deemed "only a few people can do this" hence did not do it.

Are you saying those with "psychological issues" were doing this previously (i.e. continue, growing, contributing towards establishing the system)? Yes/No/what?

[abdalquran]

They may have been, yes. Psychological issues do not come once nor are they easily predictable. This aya is talking about who are completing the challenge and fertilisation for Allah.

[Wakas]

They may have been, yes. Psychological issues do not come once nor are they easily predictable. This aya is talking about who are completing the challenge and fertilisation for Allah.

Your view still contradicts what you wrote:

We are to complete the challenge and fertilisation for Allah, which is to establish and grow His system in the world. Whoever is prevented should send forth progressions and not let go of this thought until it reaches its place of effectiveness. Those who are ill or with psychological issues should fast or give charity or keep up their life activities. Once they are secure, they are continue with fertilisation towards the challenge (that is to keep growing Gods system...

Let me break it down so you and readers can see the contradiction:

if you prevented from doing RED do BLUE
those who are ill or "psychological issues" do GREEN

But you admitted those who have "psychological issues" may have been trying to do RED and since you know of no-one in history who has ever done hajj/umrah, according to your understanding, it is highly unlikely they would "complete" it hence "prevented" thus should do BLUE. So, which is it, should they do BLUE or GREEN?

You would then have to explain why those with psychological issues are treated different to those who apparently have none, yet they are all doing the same thing in practical terms.

If the "psychological group" may have been trying to establish/grow, what about the "ill" people - should they also be, or are they exempted for some reason.

Further, the probability of a person actually establishing and growing His system in the world is extremely low, as admitted by you, yet they have psychological issues if they think it wont come be established/grown/etc which is the most probable outcome. Ergo, vast majority of people have "psychological issues" according to your view.

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No matter, we will leave the problem for you to resolve. Next question:

Wakas: Incorrectly imply the verse says ?continue with the umra? when the Arabic actually uses a perfect verb, meaning an action done/completed, meaning ?whoever benefitted/enjoyed with the umra?, thus there can be no ?(that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression)? as you allege.

Please explain. If you do not believe in perfect/imperfect verbs, that's fine, simply say so, and state there is no way to determine this etc or similar.

[abdalquran]

But you admitted those who have "psychological issues" may have been trying to do RED and since you know of no-one in history who has ever done hajj/umrah, according to your understanding, it is highly unlikely they would "complete" it hence "prevented" thus should do BLUE. So, which is it, should they do BLUE or GREEN?

Firstly, whatever has happened in history is beyond my concern. You asked an irrelevant question before when you inquired if many people could do this or not. This is not how I read the Q. For all I know history could be a major lie and it has happened many times.

Secondly, 'prevented' here in the context (sigh!) refers to falling short of the itmam state (that's why it's atimmoo and not 'a3malu' or 'af3aloo' or 'aqimoo'). So one is to constantly strive to meet the goal of the hajj (establishment of amah) and umrah (its fertilisation). So if one is prevented from reaching the mark, then one keeps sending forth progressions towards its place of effectiveness.

The 'blue OR green' question shows that once again, you're thinking with Aristotelian logic. I don't see it like this, I see it as an organic process.

You would then have to explain why those with psychological issues are treated different to those who apparently have none, yet they are all doing the same thing in practical terms.

If the "psychological group" may have been trying to establish/grow, what about the "ill" people - should they also be, or are they exempted for some reason.

To me, people with psychological issues need to work them out before they can progress to the goals. People who are ill need to get well. I don't see any problem with that.

Further, the probability of a person actually establishing and growing His system in the world is extremely low, as admitted by you, yet they have psychological issues if they think it wont come be established/grown/etc which is the most probable outcome. Ergo, vast majority of people have "psychological issues" according to your view.

This is a SLANDER. I never said the probability is extremely low. I said I dont know anyone who has done it. Kindly stop slandering me.

In terms of nafsiyyah problems then yes most people (including myself) have it. The nafs is the centre of our outcomes so the way the world is (not was), how can I say we're have sound psyches. Clearly most of us do not possess the necessarily personality to actualise masjid al-haram. Of course this is an irrelevant point. The aya gives the process, whether one wants to do it or not is up to one.

[Wakas]

The 'blue OR green' question shows that once again, you're thinking with Aristotelian logic. I don't see it like this, I see it as an organic process.

Simply saying"I see it as an organic process" doesn't actually explain the contradiction.

To me, people with psychological issues need to work them out before they can progress to the goals.

Contradicts what you said earlier, quote: "They may have been, yes."

People who are ill need to get well. I don't see any problem with that.

I'll highlight another problem for you. You claim people who are ill need to get well, but what do they do when they get well according to your understanding. They obviously try to establish/grow His system in the world, meaning they will never do the part in green. Unless, your view is Quran suggests they fast when they are ill for example.

As I said, I will leave these problems for you to resolve, next question:

Wakas: Incorrectly imply the verse says ?continue with the umra? when the Arabic actually uses a perfect verb, meaning an action done/completed, meaning ?whoever benefitted/enjoyed with the umra?, thus there can be no ?(that is to keep growing Gods system till it challenges oppression)? as you allege.

Please explain. If you do not believe in perfect/imperfect verbs, that's fine, simply say so, and state there is no way to determine this etc or similar.



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This is a SLANDER. I never said the probability is extremely low. I said I dont know anyone who has done it. Kindly stop slandering me.

It's not slander, it is simply a logical deduction of what you said and never contested:

Wakas:
You have already agreed that it would only be a minority who could even be said to achieve this. My question is: can you cite anyone, past or present (excluding prophets/messengers) that has "established and grown His system in the world"?

Farouk:
No I can't.

But it's ok, you already gave us a scenario wherein your view works "For all I know history could be a major lie and it has happened many times."

In terms of nafsiyyah problems then yes most people (including myself) have it. The nafs is the centre of our outcomes so the way the world is (not was), how can I say we're have sound psyches. Clearly most of us do not possess the necessarily personality to actualise masjid al-haram. Of course this is an irrelevant point. The aya gives the process, whether one wants to do it or not is up to one.

Thanks for clarifying in your view most have problems, and I assume here you mean "psychological issues".