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Methodology in Understanding Quran (1)

Started by Wakas, October 05, 2012, 10:58:39 AM

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Wakas

Next question:

Re: your blog post on 2:196
Quote from: FaroukThose who are ill or with psychological issues should fast or give charity or keep up their life activities.

Question:
Do you expect a person with "psychological issues" to determine they are so and therefore fast, give charity etc? I?m very interested to know how this would be, do tell. And if you have examples of this going on elsewhere in Quran, please cite the references. Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

abdalquran

Yes I do. I believe this is the case with ayyub in 38/41-44 where he overcome shaytaan/alienation by performing certain measures.

Also note, 'psychological issues' is a VAST term. Try to tie it back TO CONTEXT of discussion which is the establishment of AMAH in my interpretation. If you process two words at a time, you will never get what I'm trying to say ;)
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

Quote from: abdalquran on October 27, 2012, 09:57:14 AM
Yes I do. I believe this is the case with ayyub in 38/41-44 where he overcome shaytaan/alienation by performing certain measures.

I'm not sure if I follow, please provide a translation of 38:41-44, and explain how this is an example of a person with "psychological issues" redeeming by charity/fast/etc. Thanks.

Quote
Also note, 'psychological issues' is a VAST term. Try to tie it back TO CONTEXT of discussion which is the establishment of AMAH in my interpretation. If you process two words at a time, you will never get what I'm trying to say ;)

I dont need to "try to tie it back" to anything, as I'm asking about YOUR understanding. You tie it back for us. Please provide a few examples of what you mean. Simple.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

abdalquran

Quote from: Wakas on October 27, 2012, 10:56:26 AM
I'm not sure if I follow, please provide a translation of 38:41-44, and explain how this is an example of a person with "psychological issues" redeeming by charity/fast/etc. Thanks.

That's not what I said about ayyub. What I said was by 'performing certain measures'. Still, I'm ok with this translation:
38/41:Commemorate Our Servant ayyub. Behold he cried to his Lord: "ash-shaitaan has afflicted me with distress and suffering!"
42: Strike with your mobility/independence: here is an agent of washing, cool and refreshing, and to drink."
43: And We gave him (back) his people, and doubled their number,- as a Grace from Ourselves, and a thing for commemoration, for the people of the core.
44: And take in your capacities confusion, and seperate therewith: and break not your oath ." Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent in Our service! ever did he turn

I see shaitaan as the forces of alienation and disimmediation. They afflicted ayyub and he was told to use whatever mobility or independence he said to overcome this affliction. Allah then restored his people and doubled them. Another instruction is to take the confusion he felt and separate it (i.e.. break it down) with his capacities.

These instructions are LIKE (not the same as) the instructions of 2/196.

QuoteI dont need to "try to tie it back" to anything, as I'm asking about YOUR understanding. You tie it back for us. Please provide a few examples of what you mean. Simple.

Sure. In this context, i see it as psychological issues related to the establishment of AMAH. Like some people may whine 'only a few people can do this, if that' despite Allah saying He guarantees victory a number of places.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

Thanks for clarifying you regard one who whines as having 'psychological issues' but I asked for examples (plural) nor an example (singular). PRC.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

abdalquran

Sure, how many would you like? I see each example as credit towards thread two ;)

Here's a freebie: people who think the modern world doesn't need an AMAH since it has already the nation state.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

Quotepeople who think the modern world doesn't need an AMAH since it has already the nation state.

You will have to clarify what you mean by AMAH here, as otherwise, it seems you are implying those who do not believe in a Quran goal/directive have 'psychological issues'.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

abdalquran

sure, AMAH = the space where submisson to Allah's laws are performed and thus the place becomes sanctified.
Farouk A. Peru

Wakas

Thanks for clarifying. Here is my comments:

Re: your translation of 38:41-44

Thanks for the reply, however I see many issues with your understanding.

1) you do not take into account the chapter theme, whatever that is - something you accuse me of neglecting  ;D
2) No cross-reference whatsoever
3) fitting "forces of alienation/disimmediation" into other occurrences seems problematic, e.g. 2:275
4) you translate "rijl" as "mobility/independence" which does not fit in many of its other occurrences, 5:6, 5:33, 5:66, 24:31, 24:45 etc
5) You use "here is an agent of washing, cool and refreshing, and to drink" when the Arabic begins this part with "hadha" i.e. "this" referring to something in context, meaning we can only assume "mobility/independence" is an agent of washing, cool and refreshing to drink, which makes little sense.
6) translates "dighthan" as "confusion" which seems to pop out of nowhere. I assume you would make some link of confusion relating to alienation, which seems a tenuous link.
7) You do not explain what oath he was not meant to break


But the most surprising thing, for me at least (as I expected your translation above to have issues), was your explanation of "psychological issues". So, let's make it clear for readers, inserting your definition of AMAH:

1) You consider a person who whines as having "psychological issues"
2) people who think the modern world doesn't need a space where submisson to Allah's laws are performed since it has already the nation state have "psychological issues"

Whilst the above is interesting in itself, the highlight is what happens if we actually insert YOUR understanding into YOUR OWN understanding of 2:196

About 2:196 you said:

Those who are ill or with psychological issues should fast or give charity or keep up their life activities.

But you gave an example of psychological issues as someone who thinks the modern world doesn't need a space where submisson to Allah's laws are performed, so someone who obviously does not advocate or believe in submitting to Allah's laws in a "space" is expected to submit to Quran when it says fast, give charity or keep up their life activities, according to you.

I assume therefore, they submit personally, but do not advocate a "space" for such - even though Quran implies these people have psychological issues, according to you, so they are not really submitting to Allah's laws as such. Hmmm.

#####

As a side note, you have added my critique to your blog (finally) but then you posted "These questions have now been answered on free-minds." which is false. They are being answered (present tense), not have been answered (past tense). It seems you do not pay attention to grammar.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Wakas

I forgot to add "modern world" and "nation state" would obviously not be applicable prior, so I guess your only left with "whining" as "psychological issues" for the past.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]