News:

About us: a forum for monotheists, and discussion of Islam based on The Quran

Main Menu

Whats your opinion of Sufi Islam?

Started by Ervin, September 30, 2012, 10:34:27 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ervin

I am personally attracted to my understanding of how Sufis see and understand Islam. One of my favourite quotes is by Rumi. The quote is: Wound is where light enters you. If you google Rumi quotes you can read his stuff. Aparently Rumi is one of the most widely read poets in the USA today.

I have spoken once to a Sufi leader here in Melbourne and I asked him about his understanding of hell as that of from the Quran and he said that we are all going to heaven and that hell is a place where your ego goes to burn up.

Now my personal deeper meaning that I see through my reading a bit into what people say is that that means this life.

Anyway, in a sense I might share some of the beliefs he presented to me but they are not quite identical.

So, yeah, what's your opinion of Sufism, as a mystical branch of Islam?

Do any of you see the Quran like this Sufi that I met in Melbourne?

Thanks
My real name is also Ervin

Karimah

I have read some of Rumi's stuff. It is pretty good. I was always drawn to Sufism because of their use of (trance) dancing and also music which is usually abstained from in other Muslim groups. I am actually a Native American and I could relate to how they do their trance dancing as a means of connecting with God as Native Americans have similar ideas about dancing/music etc.
...O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account.

huruf

Quote from: Karimah on October 01, 2012, 12:56:38 AM
I have read some of Rumi's stuff. It is pretty good. I was always drawn to Sufism because of their use of (trance) dancing and also music which is usually abstained from in other Muslim groups. I am actually a Native American and I could relate to how they do their trance dancing as a means of connecting with God as Native Americans have similar ideas about dancing/music etc.

What I have learnt through sufism, is that neither hell nor paradise are forever. Only God is forever, everything else passes and  destiny is to God. God is the beginning and the end of everything. We descend from God and to God return.
That is by the way what the Qur'an says repeatedly and clearly.

Like with everything else, sufism there is good and bad, because it depends on the people who practise it and those who lead. Either they are highly inspired or are deluded or finally have egos, just as everybody else. If you get a good inspired person to lead, that is a great find, indeed.

Salaam

mmkhan

Quote from: Ervin on September 30, 2012, 10:34:27 PM
I have spoken once to a Sufi leader here in Melbourne and I asked him about his understanding of hell as that of from the Quran and he said that we are all going to heaven and that hell is a place where your ego goes to burn up.

And what are the aayaats has he quoted from alQuraan? Will you please let me know?

Thanks,
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

Released

Peace :)

I explored Sufism after falling off the Sunni wagon (good riddance). In particular, I love their way of showing dhikr through performing that whirling dance. Also, I've noticed that Sufis tend to be pretty laid back and very tolerant. The men and women tend to sit together while eating and discussing matters. I am going to say only nice things about them because I don't want to say anything that is inaccurate. There are topics such as, "sainthood", and following a set clergy (shaikh) that I do not understand. However, I don't have enough information in regard to these topics nor do I wish to pass judgement.

God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is within themselves (13:11)

mirjamnur

Salam mmkhan

QuoteIt is believed that Rumi created his poems in a state of ecstasy, accompanying his verses by a whirling dance. After Shams's death Rumi had started in his grief to circle a pole in his garden, and speak the poetry, which was written down by scribes. However, listening to music and ecstatic prayer rituals were already before Rumi features of Sufism. In the 12th century dervishes emerged throughout the Islamic world. Dance was a rhythmic expression of dhikr, an Arabic word meaning 'remembrance'. The repetition of religious formulas, the dhkir, was based on Gur'an: "O believers, remember God often and give him glory at dawn and in the evening."

In the simple reed flute Rumi saw the metaphor for himself: "Listen to the reed, how it tells a tale, complaining of separateness." The sama', the mystical dance, was for Rumi more than a technique for meditation, it was the cosmic truth, the manifestation of the secret power of God. The sun dances on the sky, the Eternal is the axis, and the entire universe is dancing and whirling around Him. "Whatever there is, is only He, / your foot steps there in dancing: / The whirling, see, belongs to you, / and you belong to the whirling."
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/rumi.htm

The ecstasy of the dance is to me totally foreign to me,  maybe you might have experiences with that?

I am fascinated by the idea that  Allah  can be achieved through the words energy . .. Although I would rather try this with the Quran, as with any other words as the word of Allah is the best zikr.

I read  the love ist like a black lion  poem that I find quite frightening:

QuoteLove's like a black lion, famished and ferocious, who only drinks the blood of the hearts of lovers. Love seizes you tenderly and drags you towards the trap. ...No one can escape his chains by trickery or madness; no sage can wriggle out of his nets by wisdom. ?Rumi (Teachings of Rumi, p. 81)

here the complete poem (translated with google translate) in german der schwarze Fuerst der Liebe

The black prince of love

Poem by Dschela ed-Din Rumi

Love has robbed me of sleep: The prince does love.
Prince does not care about love soul and reason.
A black lion, he is hungry and wild,
The only drinks the life-blood of lovers.
Prince love grabs you and drags you then gently
To the pit: crashes into you, he looks at left.
Prince Love is a despot, a heartless judge,
The innocent tortured and abused.
Case you give him, in the hands, and you weep streams
Escape an gefrierst him and you turn to ice.
At every moment he smashes one thousand cups.
Sews one hundred dresses and then she tears to shreds.
Ten thousand eyes he making you cry,
And him that makes you laugh.
He slaughters one thousand down, and they are the same to him.
No one escapes his chains by craft or madness,
No one escapes its networks, as well as he was.

rather describes the Shaytan or love??? :o
Salam

mmkhan

Quote from: Released on October 01, 2012, 07:03:39 AM
In particular, I love their way of showing dhikr through performing that whirling dance.
Peace,

Oh yeah, I can see that. You avatar shows something similar  ;)


mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

mmkhan

6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

Released

Peace

Indeed it does! She is a Sufi Kathak dancer.
God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is within themselves (13:11)

mmkhan

Quote from: Released on October 01, 2012, 08:31:43 AM
Peace

Indeed it does! She is a Sufi Kathak dancer.
Peace,

That's cool I was not knowing it is Sufi dance. What about "kathak" that use to dance in front of "Kali"? Was that also Sufi kathak or Kathak is different than Sufi Kathak?

Thanks,
mmkhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

Released

Peace MMKhan :)


Well, Kathak can be danced for a variety of reasons like any other dance. I am classically trained myself. Some Kathak dancers choreograph for temple dancing, while others choreograph for any other audience. Sufi Kathak contains a lot of that Dervish type whirling that is seen with Sufis. Also, Sufi kathak dancers tend to dress more modestly in my opinion.

I've seen a Kathak dance performed for the deity "Shiva" but never "Kali". These days, such dances do not interest me, but I still love watching Sufi Kathak.





God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is within themselves (13:11)

Zulf

Quote from: mirjamnur on October 01, 2012, 07:10:08 AM
rather describes the Shaytan or love??? :o

Sounds like the mind and it's role as the impostor-self in us when we live unconsciously (like most of us do most of the time). When we are unknowing slaves to our own mind, we bring misery and suffering to ourselves and the world. 'Ego' is a term sometimes used for this situation or mental entity. A mind unaware of it's own unconsciousness. It's an impostor since we think that this is us, the mind, the Ego, but it is not. It is not the real us. We are beyond the mind, if we could only see. Our mind should be our tool, not our master. But if we are unaware of and blind to this fact, we think we are the mind, and hence the Ego exists... a false self that brings suffering and separation from Allah. And what is love many times, if not just something that the mind has going for itself, until it gets tired of it?

So, shaytan, Ego or mind.... what's the difference?
If you name me, you negate me.

mmkhan

Quote from: Released on October 01, 2012, 09:46:44 AM
Peace MMKhan :)

Well, Kathak can be danced for a variety of reasons like any other dance. I am classically trained myself. Some Kathak dancers choreograph for temple dancing, while others choreograph for any other audience. Sufi Kathak contains a lot of that Dervish type whirling that is seen with Sufis. Also, Sufi kathak dancers tend to dress more modestly in my opinion.

I've seen a Kathak dance performed for the deity "Shiva" but never "Kali". These days, such dances do not interest me, but I still love watching Sufi Kathak.
Peace Released,

Thanks for the info.

Red part: Thanks for correction, I was thinking they perform Kathak dance in front of Kali as I have seen in some movies and in TV shows long back.


Thanks again,
mmKhan
6:162    قل إن صلاتي ونسكي ومحياي ومماتي لله رب العلمين
6:162    Say: My contact prayer, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

3:51

GODsubmitter

which sufi?
there are many lineages of sufies...

Anyway, Abū Ḥāmed Muḥammad ibn Muḥammad al-Ghazālī (1058?1111 C.E.), called "proof of Islam", who wrote the capital work Ihya' Ulum al-Din or Ihya'u Ulumiddin (The Revival of Religious Sciences), said at the end that only the sufies know the truth!  :)

:peace:
God has no Religion!

God is running everything.

Peace begins with me.

mirjamnur

Salam
Quote from: mmkhan on October 01, 2012, 08:28:10 AM
Salaam mirjamnur,

Me?

mmKhan
No of course not- sorry, had noticed the error ::)

Quote from: Zulf on October 01, 2012, 12:41:42 PM
Sounds like the mind and it's role as the impostor-self in us when we live unconsciously (like most of us do most of the time). When we are unknowing slaves to our own mind, we bring misery and suffering to ourselves and the world. 'Ego' is a term sometimes used for this situation or mental entity. A mind unaware of it's own unconsciousness. It's an impostor since we think that this is us, the mind, the Ego, but it is not. It is not the real us. We are beyond the mind, if we could only see. Our mind should be our tool, not our master. But if we are unaware of and blind to this fact, we think we are the mind, and hence the Ego exists... a false self that brings suffering and separation from Allah. And what is love many times, if not just something that the mind has going for itself, until it gets tired of it?

So, shaytan, Ego or mind.... what's the difference?
yes, really, what's the difference- maybe we sould make a new topic about the question: is shaytan = ego=nafs?

Sura 114...    Who whisperet in the hearts of mankind,....
Sura 50.16...And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein
:peace:

Bigmo

Sufism is a complicated subject. There is the sunni like sufis like Ghazali and Nawawi which is no different than other sunni school, and there is the more universalist sufis like Rumi and Gilani.

Sufism is not good for the Quranist persuasion. In fact I see it as a disaster for the Quranist persuasion. Precisley because they can conceal many aspects of Sunni Islam unlike the salafis who tell it like it is. I sometimes see sufism like a wolf in sheep clothing. Sufism never questioned Sunni jurisprudence they simply ignored its most legalistic and political aspects but never actually challenged it. For the Quranist persuasion, the more salafis dominate the better. They expose what sufis try to hide.

People don't change because they want to, they change because they have to. Since we are promoting an ALTERNATIVE interpretation of Islam, the worst the situation gets for Muslims the better it is for us. The salafis are our biggest gift.

Some may say its mean to say that. But that is the reality. The more the terror the better. At leats for us it is.
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe

youssef4342

Quote from: Released on October 01, 2012, 08:31:43 AM
Peace
Indeed it does! She is a Sufi Kathak dancer.
Well, as for me, i was kind of attracted to the whirling of their dances.

Your photo reminds me of Persian Dances, which i used to adore...
Shahrokh Moshkin Ghalam - Sohrab and Gordafarid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXumObPQ90w&feature=related
Facebook Group
[url="https://www.facebook.com/groups/310518545650653/"]https://www.facebook.com/groups/310518545650653/[/url]

"Fear not those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear the one who can destroy both the soul and the body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

Released

Peace Youssef, :)

Very nice! I watched the entire thing. I've never seen this kind of dance before. I've seen lots of different Persian dances, but never this kind. I love the footwork and chemistry between the two.

This is the kind of kathak that I like to observe ( and attempt though I am too clumsy):

Just the whirling:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cJpDAH4jJM

Now the technical piece that accompanies it (Stuff I have learned from young): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfZhBN0zH-o&feature=channel&list=UL

God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is within themselves (13:11)

youssef4342

Peace :)
Yeah, i used to like dancing, especially Persian Dancing. Shahrokh Moshkin was kind of inspirational to me, and also the sufi whirling dancing. I kind of like how they use whirling/dancing as a form of connection with God .
"Indian whirling dances" were also inspiring, ... I kind of delved into far eastern music/dances, from Tajik, hindi, afghan music etc..
I liked how many used their bodies/arms/hands to dance, which was of course more classy and tolerable than the less classy belly dancing that middle easterners are used too.
Facebook Group
[url="https://www.facebook.com/groups/310518545650653/"]https://www.facebook.com/groups/310518545650653/[/url]

"Fear not those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear the one who can destroy both the soul and the body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

Released

Peace Youssef :)

Moshkin dances like woww.. :wow mashallah...
God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is within themselves (13:11)

abdalquran

The sufis have deeper insights into Quran than any quranist at present. It would do us a world of good to read their works and use them as stimuli to higher understanding.
Farouk A. Peru

Released

Peace Farouk :)

Are there any works in particular that you would recommend reading?
God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is within themselves (13:11)

abdalquran

Sure. I love this: Sufi Metaphysics and Qur'anic Prophets: Ibn Arabi's Thought and Method in the 'Fusus Al-Hikam'

helps us see the function of Quranic personalities :)
Farouk A. Peru

Released

Thanks! :)

I will check this out! Looks like I can get it ordered to my local Barnes and Noble.
God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is within themselves (13:11)

Lena

 :peace: I am ignorant about Sufi's - just wondering, do they follow any man made doctrines or practices outside of Quran?

Thanks.

abdalquran

Yeah, to me, most of their practices aren't from the Quran. I find their reverence for their shuyukh also to be anti-quranic.
Farouk A. Peru

captainneckbeard

Quote from: Lena on October 11, 2012, 09:00:46 AM
:peace: I am ignorant about Sufi's - just wondering, do they follow any man made doctrines or practices outside of Quran?

Thanks.

The majority of Sufies are Sunnis, and from I have seen and read, they differ only in additional methods of worship, but still govern themselves by the Sunni madhabs.

abdalquran

Another book I highly recommend is Ian Almond's Sufism and Deconstruction. This book shows how Sufis had non-linnear readings of the Quran which enabled them to make conceptual leaps in the same way as Derrida's techniques of deconstruction.
Farouk A. Peru

Indelwyn

Thanks for recommendations.

I found it interesting that Saladin was highly influenced by Sufism. His main source al-Ghazali.

QuoteP.H. Newby in his book, Saladin in his Time stated:
"Had it not for al-Ghazali, Saladin would have been a fundamentalist than in practice he was because al-Ghazali was largely responsible for making mysticism respectable. For al-Ghazali the Sufi (from suf the garment sufis wore) path was one that led out of the despair into which at a crucial period of his life he had fallen. His 'dark night of the soul' came when he was a professor at the Nizamiya University in Baghdad and found that for all his mastery of scholastic theology he was without the spiritual experience necessary for that truly religious life which would ensure bliss in the world to come. His illumination came after years of ascetic contemplation. Al-Ghazali's search for truth tested the limits of human knowledge. As a result of his experience he wrote The Revival of the Religious Sciences which showed that true religion was not achieved merely by rituals or by mastering a lot of information (important though both of these were) but through a living awareness of divine values."

Its is important to note that these exquisite values were the traits of Saladin, and the thrust by which he exercised during the course of events with the Crusaders.
"Victory is changing the hearts of your opponents by gentleness and kindness."- Saladin

abdalquran

Yeah, I believe Al-Ghaz became as popular as he is because of Saladin's influence. He used him to overcome the Shia influence of the Fatimids of Egypt.
Farouk A. Peru

Azz

I think there might actually be more branches of sufism than there is with islam  :confused:

I'm still reading the page, but the Chishti Order (an order in particular known for tolerance and peace) supposedly follow the quran *and* the hadith rigidly

http://www.chishti.org/sufismquran.htm

abdalquran

The Chisti order had some elements which made me very uncomfortable. I think quranists should arrive at their own 'sufi path' although sadly most of us are still stuck between traditionalism (like Mohamed Shiekh) and rationalism (Ghulam Ahmed Parwez).  To me the Quran cannot fit either approach.
Farouk A. Peru