:: Was Muhammed name of a Prophet? ::

[mmkhan]

Salaam,

Thanks to supportpeacenotwar, huruf, man of faith and zone for your kind words. May Allah bless you.

People like The_Chimp know only how to shout and claim others are wrong without able to prove it from alQuraan. They could not able to quote a single aayat to prove wrong. But they very well know how to call stupid, ignorant, meaningless sanctimony, horrendous mistakes, dishonest, untruthful, misguiding, I can prove him wrong, I have already proved him wrong, and the list goes on.... but still could not able to prove any of his points.

It is very easy for me to say the same about him, but then I will not be truthful as I don't know him.

What these people actually do is mentioned in 41:26.

41:26 وَ قَالَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا لَا تَسۡمَعُوۡا لِہٰذَا الۡقُرۡاٰنِ وَ الۡغَوۡا فِیۡہِ لَعَلَّکُمۡ تَغۡلِبُوۡنَ
41:26 And those who disbelieve say, "Do not listen to this Qur'an and speak noisily during it that perhaps you will overcome."

So, bring your prove to show me wrong instead of just babbling if you are truthful.


May Allah protect us from such behavior against the aayaat of Allah and guide us on His path
mmKhan

[The_Chimp]

Salaam,

Thanks to supportpeacenotwar, huruf, man of faith and zone for your kind words. May Allah bless you.

People like The_Chimp know only how to shout and claim others are wrong without able to prove it from alQuraan. They could not able to quote a single aayat to prove wrong. But they very well know how to call stupid, ignorant, meaningless sanctimony, horrendous mistakes, dishonest, untruthful, misguiding, I can prove him wrong, I have already proved him wrong, and the list goes on.... but still could not able to prove any of his points.

It is very easy for me to say the same about him, but then I will not be truthful as I don't know him.

What these people actually do is mentioned in 41:26.

41:26 وَ قَالَ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا لَا تَسۡمَعُوۡا لِہٰذَا الۡقُرۡاٰنِ وَ الۡغَوۡا فِیۡہِ لَعَلَّکُمۡ تَغۡلِبُوۡنَ
41:26 And those who disbelieve say, "Do not listen to this Qur'an and speak noisily during it that perhaps you will overcome."

So, bring your prove to show me wrong instead of just babbling if you are truthful.


May Allah protect us from such behavior against the aayaat of Allah and guide us on His path
mmKhan

Salam Mr Kahn,

I am sorry but this is plain wrong:

"People like The_Chimp know only how to shout and claim others are wrong without able to prove it from alQuraan."

When you talk about Arabic and get the basics wrong. Then, it has nothing really to do with the Quran.

They could not able to quote a single aayat to prove wrong.

Sadly, this is not true either. For one thing - all the proof you have brought has been dismissed. And if you look back at my posts - I have and can still give references from the Quran.

However, making basic Arabic mistakes has not got much to do with the Quran.

But they very well know how to call stupid, ignorant, meaningless sanctimony, horrendous mistakes, dishonest, untruthful, misguiding, I can prove him wrong, I have already proved him wrong, and the list goes on.... but still could not able to prove any of his points.

Again Mr Khan - you are simply wallowing.

I have conclusively shown your Arabic mistakes.

It is very easy for me to say the same about him, but then I will not be truthful as I don't know him.

Sorry, but this is not how it works. I note that you have not spend any time in refuting - but in wallowing. And that really does speaks volumes. Also - not a single person, whose names you quoted above, have agreed with your position. Or jumped up and answer on your behalf. 

The support they show you is that you are their brother. I am not.

What these people actually do is mentioned in 41:26.

See my friend, what you do is far, far, far worse in my eyes. You use the Quran to justify. That is wrong. See - you have just implied I am a kafir! I have not done so - or even hinted at this against you.



Is it possible for you to answer simple questions? I mean, why do you speak about Arabic - when clearly you are unable to understand even the basics.

Bring your prove to show me wrong instead of just babbling if you are truthful.

I already have. Pretending otherwise will not help you.

[supportpeacenotwar]

Sorry, sister,

I did not mean to point out any lack in your post, I just saw the opportunity of pointing out what I did. I am sure you are aware and conscious of it. But, as I say, it seemed to me particularly to the point, because if we think tawheed means anything, then everything is coherent and harmony and sense will pervade everything that exists and speak to us if we listen.

You seem a very patient person. Best wishes.

Salaam

Peace sister,

Don't worry about it. I know what you mean. Thank you, that's nice of you to say.

May Allah shower you with blessings on the path that leads straight to Him.

[zone]

Salam Zone,

I am sorry to say, this kind of meaningless spiel doesn't work. I can easily prove mmKhan is wrong and to an extend have done so.

Peace The_Chimp.

You have shown your true colors, the sunni character, calling others stupid, ignorant and their ideas meaningless, professing that you are the master of religion.

What do you expect to hear or read in a God Alone Quran Alone community forum? When you witness people discuss the term Muhammad, messenger, hadith, ayah, ulama, shirk, and other Quranic words, using the Quran as a guidance, which are phenomenal to us in becoming a true muslim.

So it is not surprising that you see people here share some basic principles such as:
Allah teach us the Quran
Allah guides us or whomever He wills
Allah knows who are in His straight path
Allah commanded us not to set up masters besides Him
Allah commanded us not to set up partners with Him
Allah said there will be no intercession
Allah commanded us to verify

If you have a better argument, bring forth as an alternative. I would like to see objectivity, consistency and accuracy in your argument with proofs. Stop belittling people who presents differing ideas from what you have.

And if you brought to those who were given the Book every ayat, they would not follow your qiblah. Nor will you be a follower of their qiblah. Nor would they be followers of one another's qiblah. So if you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, indeed, you would then be among the wrongdoers. (2:145)

And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. (2:48)

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Book which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray. (4:136)

[supportpeacenotwar]

Peace The_Chimp,

I actually believe that Muhammad was a man. If mmKhan wants to explore different possibilities, who am I to stop him? I know that I explore different ideas about Ramadan, Shaytan etc. We can all discuss here but it is much better and in the spirit of the Quran and the believer to keep a more civil tone. You said that we don't need to know Arabic to follow the central principles/be a 'simple believer', then you ask me which principles those are? They are the principles of Islam that one can follow without knowing Arabic - as you already agreed to.

I also listed some of the central principles in on the very quotes: believe in God, the last day, do good.

I really have not been following all of this, I read some things and I do not know if there are some flaws in what mmKhan is saying.

In terms of 'stupidity', as we are told not to name call, I would class that as going against the Quran. As well as the fact, it is not necessary. If mmKhan is being truly sincere and seeking Allah's swt guidance along the way, then he is simply seeking the truth as best he can. I am sorry if that answer is not good enough for you. Allah swt is the best Judge.

My point about the Quran and the so called 'beating' verse, was in relation to the point that I believe we don't need to know Arabic to understand the Quran or to find parts of the translations that stand out as more problematic. What is the language of the Quran, is a video I saw and I think the uploader makes some interesting points especially about the magnitude of the point that the Quran is for all mankind... not just Arabic speakers. Not just those most fluent in Arabic either.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLNNZG9Wky0

When we hear the Quran is it just that it speaks to us if we know Arabic, or does it speak to us on a deeper level? As a Muslim... I'm sure you know what I'm getting at with the deeper level part, i.e. the way in which the Quran is very moving when you listen to it in Arabic even if you cannot understand what all the words mean in Arabic itself.

I don't know what reference you are talking about but no  - it was not to you. I agree with you that Muhammad was a man and I agree with mmKhan that we don't need to know Arabic in order to understandthe Quran.

The Quran as a reminder: I explained that in my original post. My point is that we do not need to know Arabic to understand the main message of the Quran. We already know of the moral issues, the devotion and sincerity necessary, the logical conclusion that there is one God - with or without the Quran. Of course, the Quran is a blessing and a Reminder to that. So my point is even in translation, we can get at that message that we are already aware of and that we are being reminded about.

Do we need to know a much Arabic to understand any 'finer' points? Only Allah swt knows the answer to that. He bestows understanding and guidance.

I tried to keep this 'short and sweet' as they say and that's one the reasons I didn't quote you, but I found I should explain more. I hope you can appreciate that and that it does not become a source of contention.

[The_Chimp]

Peace The_Chimp.

You have shown your true colors, the sunni character, calling others stupid, ignorant and their ideas meaningless, professing that you are the master of religion.

What do you expect to hear or read in a God Alone Quran Alone community forum? When you witness people discuss the term Muhammad, messenger, hadith, ayah, ulama, shirk, and other Quranic words, using the Quran as a guidance, which are phenomenal to us in becoming a true muslim.

So it is not surprising that you see people here share some basic principles such as:
Allah teach us the Quran
Allah guides us or whomever He wills
Allah knows who are in His straight path
Allah commanded us not to set up masters besides Him
Allah commanded us not to set up partners with Him
Allah said there will be no intercession
Allah commanded us to verify

If you have a better argument, bring forth as an alternative. I would like to see objectivity, consistency and accuracy in your argument with proofs. Stop belittling people who presents differing ideas from what you have.

And if you brought to those who were given the Book every ayat, they would not follow your qiblah. Nor will you be a follower of their qiblah. Nor would they be followers of one another's qiblah. So if you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, indeed, you would then be among the wrongdoers. (2:145)

And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. (2:48)

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Book which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray. (4:136)

Zone,

You have shown your true colors, the sunni character, calling others stupid, ignorant and their ideas meaningless, professing that you are the master of religion.

Try concentrating on your words:

"You have shown your true colors, the sunni character"

In other words - you already have prejudice against over 1 billion people!

I am sorry - but that is far worse. I have specifically been against Mr. Khan and his views. Have you bothered to read the posts? I have been quite restraint aagainst someone who call me a "Kafir".

A meaningless ideas are just that - meaningless. Ignorance is ignorance. Stupidity is stupidity. Getting basics of Arabic wrong but obstinately advocating a view built upon wrong information is all three.

And I have not proceeded to imply anyone as Kafir.

What do you expect to hear or read in a God Alone Quran Alone community forum? When you witness people discuss the term Muhammad, messenger, hadith, ayah, ulama, shirk, and other Quranic words, using the Quran as a guidance, which are phenomenal to us in becoming a true muslim.

Have you been following this thread? The last thing I expect to see is making mistakes in Arabic and building arguments upon mistakes. Sorry, but have you missed all that. And are you simply trying to "abuse" me for being Sunni? That is what your comments seem to imply.

If you have a better argument, bring forth as an alternative. I would like to see objectivity, consistency and accuracy in your argument with proofs. Stop belittling people who presents differing ideas from what you have.

So why are you belittle me? It is clear you have not followed the thread and you are not aware of the argument so far. This is about mmKhan making blatant errors and still claiming credence for his views.

What has this got to do with:

So it is not surprising that you see people here share some basic principles such as:
Allah teach us the Quran
Allah guides us or whomever He wills
Allah knows who are in His straight path
Allah commanded us not to set up masters besides Him
Allah commanded us not to set up partners with Him
Allah said there will be no intercession
Allah commanded us to verify

Have the decency and the good grace to be truthful and honest and at least follow the thread, IF you are going to comment. Else do not bother, purely on the basis of bigotry [evidence read the 1st objection above] .



And quoting verses is no argument.

[mmkhan]

Salam Mr Kahn,

I am sorry but this is plain wrong:

When you talk about Arabic and get the basics wrong. Then, it has nothing really to do with the Quran.

Salaam The_Chimp,

Did I talk about Arabic, really? When? Where? Why? Please take a look at how I have started by clicking here. Do you find me talking about man-made Arabic grammar there? Please point me if you find it.

This is what I was talking, just reverse your sentence and see how it works. "It has nothing really to do with man-made Arabic grammar when we talk about alQuraan".

Sadly, this is not true either. For one thing - all the proof you have brought has been dismissed. And if you look back at my posts - I have and can still give references from the Quran.

Red: How? How are they dismissed, you just said I am wrong and we have to agree with you.

Blue: Please point me to them again, sorry I missed them.

However, making basic Arabic mistakes has not got much to do with the Quran.

Wake up brother! Just don't rush... I am discussing alQuraan not man-made Arabic grammar full of errors.

I am not strong enough to judge and deny aayaat of alQuraan based on man-made Arabic grammar. If you can, then please do, I don't have to do anything with it.

Again Mr Khan - you are simply wallowing.

This is because, you are claiming to be a sunni and I am not at all interested in discussing with any sects. Because they are already set their minds, so nothing can go through their throat. I have experienced it personally many many times. Sorry to say this, but it is you who said to be a sunni about yourself and also you have shown your anger against alQuraan aloners.

I have conclusively shown your Arabic mistakes.

Sorry, but this is not how it works. I note that you have not spend any time in refuting - but in wallowing. And that really does speaks volumes. Also - not a single person, whose names you quoted above, have agreed with your position. Or jumped up and answer on your behalf.

Please see above.

Red: Did I say that? You see, how you are in rush and making baseless conclusions? Please scroll above and see again what I wrote. Your rush and conclusions are making your wrong, so, please be patient and seek Allah help on every step you take.

The support they show you is that you are their brother. I am not.

I am happy to see that And my ultimate support is from Allah, alhamduliAllah.

See my friend, what you do is far, far, far worse in my eyes. You use the Quran to justify. That is wrong. See - you have just implied I am a kafir! I have not done so - or even hinted at this against you.

I am surprise to know that... then what is the purpose of alQuraan? Is it just to get 10 favors for each word read? I don't think so. If you understand the meaning of kafir, then you may agree. Yes, that is because, I am kafir of your deen.

Is it possible for you to answer simple questions? I mean, why do you speak about Arabic - when clearly you are unable to understand even the basics.

Again???

Where am I talking about man-made Arabic?

I already have. Pretending otherwise will not help you.

This is not fair.


May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path
mmKhan


PS. Please do remember brother, man-made Arabic grammar has nothing to do with Arabic of alQuraan except in few areas.

[Earthdom]

Red: I am sure that alQuraan is the Book of Allah and there is a dialectical problem in it?

Peace.What I mean is not like this bro mmmkhan.

mmkhan looks like you're expert in arabic but?
Did you know if tanwin "un" is to make clear if that owner of the name is male/mudzakka or female/mussnat.

Example:
مُسلِمُ =muslimun (for male)
مُسْلِمَةٌ=muslimatun (for female)

فَاطِمَةُ=fathimatun (for female)
دَاوُدُ, يُوْسُفُ , etc

Evidence that you must see,mmkhan:

إِذْ قَالَ يُوسُفُ لِأَبِيهِ يَا أَبَتِ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُ أَحَدَ عَشَرَ كَوْكَبًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ رَأَيْتُهُمْ لِي سَاجِدِينَ

See the word Yusuf also using dhammah so it's impossible if Yusuf is not a name.

وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّا ۖ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

Look Ibrahim's name also using dhammah too.

مَرَرْتُ بغُلاَمِ زَيْدٍ الفَاضِلِ

The word zaid is using kasrah tanwin, but Zaid is not only noun but a male which became noun.So the word Zaid is a mudzakkar name.It's strange if the word Zaid isn't a name.

Tanween comes on ALL INDEFINITE NOUNS - except those that are Ghair Munsarif, upon whom Tanween is not applicable. For example the name Ibrahim - it doesn't take tanween becuase it is Gahir Munsarif - as non-Arabic names do not accept tanween. As all names are nouns - tanween occurs on them. Just because tanween is upon the name Muhammad that does NOT mean it isn't a name.

Good point by brother the Chimp

Mr mmKhan - why do I get the feeling you have some other hidden agenda?

I hope you're not Christian misionaries who disguised as Muslim like in another online Muslim forum did.

[The_Chimp]

Peace The_Chimp,

I actually believe that Muhammad was a man. If mmKhan wants to explore different possibilities, who am I to stop him? I know that I explore different ideas about Ramadan, Shaytan etc. We can all discuss here but it is much better and in the spirit of the Quran and the believer to keep a more civil tone. You said that we don't need to know Arabic to follow the central principles/be a 'simple believer', then you ask me which principles those are? They are the principles of Islam that one can follow without knowing Arabic - as you already agreed to.

I also listed some of the central principles in on the very quotes: believe in God, the last day, do good.

I really have not been following all of this, I read some things and I do not know if there are some flaws in what mmKhan is saying.

In terms of 'stupidity', as we are told not to name call, I would class that as going against the Quran. As well as the fact, it is not necessary. If mmKhan is being truly sincere and seeking Allah's swt guidance along the way, then he is simply seeking the truth as best he can. I am sorry if that answer is not good enough for you. Allah swt is the best Judge.

My point about the Quran and the so called 'beating' verse, was in relation to the point that I believe we don't need to know Arabic to understand the Quran or to find parts of the translations that stand out as more problematic. What is the language of the Quran, is a video I saw and I think the uploader makes some interesting points especially about the magnitude of the point that the Quran is for all mankind... not just Arabic speakers. Not just those most fluent in Arabic either.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLNNZG9Wky0

When we hear the Quran is it just that it speaks to us if we know Arabic, or does it speak to us on a deeper level? As a Muslim... I'm sure you know what I'm getting at with the deeper level part, i.e. the way in which the Quran is very moving when you listen to it in Arabic even if you cannot understand what all the words mean in Arabic itself.

I don't know what reference you are talking about but no  - it was not to you. I agree with you that Muhammad was a man and I agree with mmKhan that we don't need to know Arabic in order to understandthe Quran.

The Quran as a reminder: I explained that in my original post. My point is that we do not need to know Arabic to understand the main message of the Quran. We already know of the moral issues, the devotion and sincerity necessary, the logical conclusion that there is one God - with or without the Quran. Of course, the Quran is a blessing and a Reminder to that. So my point is even in translation, we can get at that message that we are already aware of and that we are being reminded about.

Do we need to know a much Arabic to understand any 'finer' points? Only Allah swt knows the answer to that. He bestows understanding and guidance.

I tried to keep this 'short and sweet' as they say and that's one the reasons I didn't quote you, but I found I should explain more. I hope you can appreciate that and that it does not become a source of contention.

I actually believe that Muhammad was a man. If mmKhan wants to explore different possibilities, who am I to stop him? I know that I explore different ideas about Ramadan, Shaytan etc. We can all discuss here but it is much better and in the spirit of the Quran and the believer to keep a more civil tone.

I am sorry, you what? "I actually believe that Muhammad was a man. If mmKhan wants to explore different possibilities" Read that back to yourself!

Look - discussion is one thing. Deliberate dishonesty is something else.  I am have not objected the having such discussions in the 1st place. No - the honesty and the truth of it. What would you do if you were in my shoes? And saw someone making errors. Point them out? Expect the person to pay heed. If not - your tone would become harsher. Or would you stand by and not do anything about clear falsehood?

You said that we don't need to know Arabic to follow the central principles/be a 'simple believer', then you ask me which principles those are? They are the principles of Islam that one can follow without knowing Arabic - as you already agreed to.

As I pointed out - me and you hold different views on such matter - so I would like to hear what you hold to be the basics? And I would still ike to know.

In terms of 'stupidity', as we are told not to name call, I would class that as going against the Quran.

How? Name-calling is something else. Calling stupidity is something different. For example what do you call someone who lies? A liar. Isn't it the Quran that calls out ignorance and stupidity, among other things?

If mmKhan is being truly sincere and seeking Allah's swt guidance along the way, then he is simply seeking the truth as best he can. I am sorry if that answer is not good enough for you. Allah swt is the best Judge.

The whole point! It is perfectly clear, he is not being sincere.

My point about the Quran and the so called 'beating' verse, was in relation to the point that I believe we don't need to know Arabic to understand the Quran

Look, disagree strongly with this and I do find this as sheer nonsense and stupidity. We do need the Arabic to understand the Quran! That is common sense! I cannot disguise that.

When we hear the Quran is it just that it speaks to us if we know Arabic, or does it speak to us on a deeper level? As a Muslim... I'm sure you know what I'm getting at with the deeper level part, i.e. the way in which the Quran is very moving when you listen to it in Arabic even if you cannot understand what all the words mean in Arabic itself.

If you cannot "get" Quran at primary level, I doubt you can get "deeper depths". Yes some non-Muslims hear it and their heart is changed. But that is not under discussion.

Mr Khan was using Arabic. he started its use, hence why the discussion arose. Why is he building an Arabic langauge argument, when he is not even aware of the basics? It is a perfectly valid question?

I don't know what reference you are talking about but no  - it was not to you. I agree with you that Muhammad was a man and I agree with mmKhan that we don't need to know Arabic in order to understandthe Quran.

To me, that is completely wrong. We do need to know Arabic. Doesn't Quran itself say it is in Arabic? Else you cannot understand one word of Quran.

And please go back and look this up. Why was Mr Khan building an argument out of the language of Quran, when he does not understand it? I would really appreciate an answer.

The Quran as a reminder: I explained that in my original post. My point is that we do not need to know Arabic to understand the main message of the Quran.

So how else do you understand it?

We already know of the moral issues, the devotion and sincerity necessary, the logical conclusion that there is one God - with or without the Quran.

In other words, because you were brought up in a Muslim house hold and you got that from you parents. Sorry, but this is a circular argument, a likely paradox.

Of course, the Quran is a blessing and a Reminder to that. So my point is even in translation, we can get at that message that we are already aware of and that we are being reminded about.

All this is somewhat off topic. You cannot understand Quran without the language. As you have yourself said [see above] external perceptions have nothing to do with the Quran. Hence you did not achieve them from Quran. So, to read Quran you need to know Arabic. I am sorry, but that is just common sense!

What you are saying is this:

We do not need a Maths book to know about Maths and its usefulness. However to learn and apply Maths. One does need to learn what the Maths book says.

Hence:

We do not need the Quran book to know about God. However to learn and apply God's instructions. We do need to learn what the Quran says. And we can only get to this knowledge, by learning Arabic.

Do we need to know a much Arabic to understand any 'finer' points? Only Allah swt knows the answer to that. He bestows understanding and guidance.

Brother, you are confusing the issues here. If the 'finer points' relate to language, then we do need Arabic. As was the case with Mr. Khan's argument.

Why did he start down this path of Arabic. Then when he is pulled up short and is now attempting to move the goal posts by saying that Arabic isn't needed.

[supportpeacenotwar]

Peace Chimp,

If this is going off topic, maybe we should leave it. I was not really brought up in a religious household. Plus, I also left Islam for a bit and then came back. But the point about already knowing morality etc is because God has imbued us with a level of understanding, that is why the Quran is also a Reminder (and a confirmation) - of what we already know (and what has gone before.)

And I am not a brother. I don't know why you are asking me 'how else do you understand the Quran?' - if you don't know Arabic, what would you do? Ask Allah swt for guidance, seek out many translations. Then you can start look at the transliteration where possible as you learn bits of terminology.