Any Uncircumcised Here?

[Ayisha]

1. It's not about confirming a book... it's about confirming universal truths and practices that enhance peace and goodness. You'll never find contradicting truths.

So all the kill them wherever you find them verses are confirming universal truths and practices that enhance peace and goodness? {yes I know they are talking in war but still, wouldn't sitting down and having a nice chat about universal truths be better?}

I agree with what you're saying about peace and goodness and contradictions but Quran confirms Torah and 5.43 confirms it was with Muhammed when that was revealed.

2. Yes it does. The quran does correct ANYTHING which is madness. It corrects it by laying out principles, and when something goes against those principles, that is the same as correcting it. Why does it have to mention it by name? This reminds me about those who ask where in the quran we find all the details about salat.

it corrects what is wrong, what man had changed, and yes lays out principles but this book has been here 1400 years and here we all are still discussing what different words actually mean to arrive at the principles we want it to arrive at - the 19ers are a good example.

3. You mean quran confirms circumcision and stoning simply since it doesn't mention the specific text passages of the torah, or terms for practices in, and subsequently set them right???

Did God say He confirms the book or not?

The stories are a reminder, not the whole story is there just parts to remind you. Quran does not contain all the Torah as it doesn't need to as He already said many times this Quran confirms it, or do you see something different in those verses?

4. Is it logical, sensible, reasonable or even likely that Allah would crystallize written directions into this world, that tell us to mutilate and permanently handicap infants??? What sort of image of Allah gives rise to such an idea?

But He confirms He told Abraham to sacrifice his son and that's fine? That's fine because He mentioned that again in this book? Male circumcision isn't a handicap in ANY way.

[Ayisha]

Salaam,

AlQuraan DOES mentioned it, plain and simple 

95:4 لَقَدۡ خَلَقۡنَا الۡاِنۡسَانَ فِیۡۤ اَحۡسَنِ تَقۡوِیۡمٍ
95:4 We have created the human being in the best form

Please note the word "khalaqna" in Arabic, which is derived from the root "kha laam qaaf"

4:118 وَّ لَاُضِلَّنَّہُمۡ وَ لَاُمَنِّیَنَّہُمۡ وَ لَاٰمُرَنَّہُمۡ فَلَیُبَتِّکُنَّ اٰذَانَ الۡاَنۡعَامِ وَ لَاٰمُرَنَّہُمۡ فَلَیُغَیِّرُنَّ خَلۡقَ اللّٰہِ ؕ وَ مَنۡ یَّتَّخِذِ الشَّیۡطٰنَ وَلِیًّا مِّنۡ دُوۡنِ اللّٰہِ فَقَدۡ خَسِرَ خُسۡرَانًا مُّبِیۡنًا
4:118 And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss.

The same rooted word is used in 4:118 i.e, "khalqa".

This clearly shows that whatever Allah created is the BEST creation/form but shaitaan commands people to make change in the creation of Allah. May Allah protect us all.


May Allah increase us in knowledge and keep us guiding to His only path 
mmKhan

Yes, creation being the subject yes we are the best of creation, then God told Abraham to circumcise the males. If that had been something satan had done and that crept into the Torah (which God would've known when He revealed 5.43) then God would've corrected that in Quran as He corrected the misconception of Jesus being His son.

It seems that when everyone comes across something they don't like in any 'translation' of Quran they search and fiddle with it until they change concepts (or numbers) until they arrive at a way they do like it.

At no point in this thread have I said this must be done, I don't care what you men do with your bits personally. What I have said is that this was a covenant between Abraham and God and it's in the Torah. The various attacks on me have been due to my saying God confirms the Torah, well sorry guys, that's what it says.

Very few of you have actually brought 'evidence' from any of the Books of God and it's been more a 'war' between God and science/medicine/personal anguish/personal desires than a discussion in 'religion' terms.

To add, I don't take any 'WE believe' this or that from anyone, my journey to God is not your journey and just because someone has come up with a thesis on what 'we' believe doesn't mean I am of that 'sect'. Great respect to layth and all those who have and are still studying to arrive at some agreement based on picking apart every last word but the conclusions will still only mean some agree and some don't, that's how 'belief' works.

I read all/many of the discussions/articles/books with interest and try to understand how the writer arrives at their conclusions, some I agree with and some I don't and this forum is full of different ideas, which is great, but one man's ideas and discoveries only aids another in their journey, it does not give them the destination (and it should not) as we are all searching our own paths to our own personal belief.

The one thing in common is God Alone.

[Zulf]

...and here we all are still discussing what different words actually mean to arrive at the principles we want it to arrive at

True. That's what's happening. People have different levels of insight and understanding.

Male circumcision isn't a handicap in ANY way.

What!??
Maybe not to you and people who have not been cut.
But ask Meteora.


Peace and cheers

[Meteora]

She has a habit of posting garbage not even remotely worth wasting time to read.

Quickly visited this thread again from a Google search. After my last post doing a quick glance, I find she's saying:

1. Stoning was "corrected" by the Quran with lashing, despite that mainstream Islam doesn't say the punishment for fornication is stoning. It's saying the punishment for adultery, which is different, is stoning. The Torah as well, says the punishment for ADULTERY is stoning. So Ayesha is in full support of the stonings that occur in places like Iran and other M.E. countries, given the tortured-to-death victim performed the act. Anyone who watches the Stoning of Soraya (2010 movie) will have a glimpse of Ayesha's motives.

i.e. Islam says fornication is what the Quran's talking about, because hey, there's technically no proof the Quranic word is "adultery" or includes adultery, but common sense and Quranic knowledge makes it clear to the rational person stoning (for...lol, sex outside marriage) is satanic and is a sin of epic proportions, that the only thing the Quran associates stoning with is pagan idol worship.

2. The verse about Allah perfecting the creation, is somehow, miraculously not in contradiction to the practice of permanently cutting off erogenous protective flesh from a male's genitals (during infancy, strapped down and torturously circumcised by force, not being given the right to have a say in the matter when he's of age (not that they'd ever want it when they know the whole truth of it), nor an anesthetic to accompany the pain even) and having it altered in numerous adverse ways, permanently, for the rest of the boy's life (one way actually makes it desensitize constantly). Anyone who compares this to cutting hair and nails, which is almost as stupid as comparing it to removing sweat off your forehead (hint: hair and nails, just like bodily secretions are products of the actual body, produced constantly thus common sense says cutting nails is NOT a change or mutilation of the body). If that wasn't bad enough:

a) The threshold of pain delivered by circumcision is fantastically painful to the point hundreds of babies die every year in just America, from this $300-400 per 15 minutes ($12,000 - 1,600 per hour) practice (Satan's satanic incentive, other than making people believe false religious crap of course). This is not even including the more profitable, second part of this which is the low, satanic and disgusting sale of the foreskin for the manufacturing of beauty products or other surgeries and biomedical research. Either that or the baby enters a comatose state (meaning so much pain they pass out). That or they're screaming at such a disturbing level as in the following: http://vimeo.com/22940047 (skip to 2:40 if you have the gut)

b) Most of the male's ability to receive pleasure is gone, simply because the same type of nerve-laden tissue which gives the female pleasure from her external genitals is cut off - dissected from the body. The male thus has to make up for said loss of physical pleasure through unnatural means, be it more mental stimulation by getting the woman to do things she (in most cases) is not naturally comfortable with doing. If it wasn't obvious enough, studies have been done showing circumcised men obsess more about various sexual positions as well as sexual practices, esp. oral sex. All of this is more than replaced with a foreskin (read: it is a lot more rare for intact men to have these perversions), which Allah puts on every male and thus eases the sex lives, speaking in the general sense w/ common sense hygiene. If you're a man/woman thinking circumcised males improve or has improved your sex life, just know a great portion of men in Egypt and African countries find their sex lives enhanced when the female has been circumcised and many Egyptian women don't mind their circumcisions while many circumcised men mind their's.

Not surprisingly, circumcision seems more linked to violent tendencies later in life as just about all serial killers, rapists and violence inflicters in America were circumcised. No need to get into the Middle East obviously as we know the aggressive, controlling and mentally obsessed with sex nature of the men it has. Seems legit considering the violence and mutilation that is circ. It is even arguable that this falls in the category of Satan's promise even more since it's not just the physical aspect, but the mental warping of the individual it has later as just described. America also has an alarmingly high rate of divorce than say Europe, which has a 98% intact rate roughly. Once again, not surprising considering the sexual relationship info above, and you heard of the recent Sandy Hook shooting? Arguably the most horrific school shooting in history. Looking at the shooter's ethnic background info there's a very high chance he was circumcised (Jewish ancestry). Lovely.

3. The verses about Allah wishing us no hardship, and a life filled with pleasure and free of pain is in addition, quite miraculously not in contradiction with the above facts anyone can confirm on their own (10% of it was educated opinion, worst case scenario).

Some people are astronomically ignorant or so similar to brick walls that other, rational members don't waste their times dealing with. Ayesha's no exception, and I usually read through a person's posts fully when they're at least remotely sound.

There's a reason not one person here agreed with your crap, and it's because when they confirm the information in this post for themselves they'll see that routine male infant circumcision is blatantly against what the Quran preaches.

-Edit- And Allah wouldn't so senselessly say he perfected the creation, then turn around to command infant male genital amputation (since he obviously would want nothing save for his creation to BE perfect), unless your mind's stuffed with more bullshit than I imagined first conversing with you.

And that's exactly why the Jews believe the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_male_circumcision

"To be born without a foreskin was regarded as the privilege of the most saintly of people, from Adam, 'who was made in the image of God,' and Moses to Zerubbabel (see Midrash Ab. R. N., ed. Schechter, p. 153; and Talmud, Sotah 12a). Uncircumcision being considered a blemish, circumcision was to remove it, and to render Abraham and his descendants "perfect" (Talmud Ned. 31b; Midrash Genesis Rabbah xlvi.)"

If you deny this part then you'll be the laughing stock of Free Minds.

[Meteora]

Hey dumbass:

2:75    Did you expect that they would believe with you, when a group of them had heard the words of God then altered them knowingly after having understood?

2:76    And when they come across those who believe, they say: "We believe!" And when they are alone with each other they say: "Why do you inform them of what God has said to us? Then they would use it in argument against us at your Lord. Do you not comprehend?"

2:77    Do they not know that God knows what they conceal and what they declare?

2:78    And among them are Gentiles who do not know the Book except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.

2:79    So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say: "This is from God," so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

These were what I cited earlier, quranically confirming scripture corruption (corruption of "the Book", which we know to be the original Torah). Changed by the SAME Jews who received it (here are the verses preceding the set I posted showing it's discussing THE JEWS):

2:71    He said: "He says it is a heifer which was never subjugated to plough the land, or water the crops, free from any blemish." They said: "Now you have come with the truth." And they slaughtered it, though they had nearly not done so.

2:72    And you had murdered a person, then disputed in the matter; God was to bring out what you were keeping secret.

2:73    We said: "Strike him with parts from it." It is thus that God brings the dead to life, and He shows you His signs that you may comprehend.

2:74    Then your hearts became hardened after that, they became like stone or even harder; but even from stone there are rivers that burst forth, and from them are those that crack so that the water comes forth, and from them are what descends from concern towards God; and God is not unaware of what you do.

This doesn't magically fix itself. So then comes Jesus, had his shit corrupted as well, so that is (at least one of) the purposes for Mohamed's advent later. If you don't know this then lol.
_____

Another verse saying the Quran is an authentication for what Moses was given:

46:12    And before it was the Book of Moses, a beacon and a mercy. And this is an authenticating Book, in an Arabic tongue, so that you may warn those who have transgressed, and to give good news to the righteous.

You're trying to say the Torah Mohamed/Allah commanded (1400 years ago) the Jews to follow is the one embraced by Jews around the world today. You can't prove this, especially with the verses I provided. Allah makes a similar command about the Gospel elsewhere so you would have to stupidly argue as well that we need to follow the current Gospel.

Plus, in that section where you said stoning was "corrected" by the Quran...basically you're saying God wants us to follow the Quran, as well as the (current) Torah, but watch out for them Toraic corruptions! Hop from one script to the other to see if the Quran "fixed up" something or denounced it. Why stop at the current Torah? Lets flip to the current Gospel as well to see if there are additional rules we should be following. Have fun reading folks!

Why of course I keep coming to post overwhelming proof that the current Torah is nothing like Moses' Torah, I don't know.

[Meteora]

You also copped out of this post:

Dear Aisha,

We are Submitters who follow a Book that supersedes all previous scripts and is the source of our law (5:48)

As for the Torah - this nonsense we have today is not the words revealed to Moses on mount Sinai as it refers to events that occurred after the crossing and during the 40 year banishment from the holy land and even after the death of Moses. Even Jewish sources acknowledge that there are parts of today's Torah that come from the time of King David, king Josiah, and even the Babylonian exile.  The oldest surviving fragments of a written Torah date to the 9th century A.D. - so I don't see how your statement (it was the same Torah at the time of Mohammed) holds water.

Regards,

and this one:

Though not mentioning it specifically, Quran is still against it in the sense that it is against:
* blindly following things of our parents
* not using reason
* not pondering creation
* compulsion in religion (yes, you are permanently marked with a religious stamp, not given a choice)
* oppression (yes, you are forced into a lifelong debility, not given a choice)

The quran outlines principles. In essence, the quran is against anything that goes against its principles.

Plain and simple 

Peace

to write:

The Torah ends with the death of Moses. 

and:

And the Quran confirms the Torah and does not 'correct' this part.

As Layth was saying, the oldest fragments of a Torah dates hundreds of years after the Quran which only supports everything I've said. For his well-being, I pray you never have a son or even a foster one.

In the second part you're essentially saying to Zulf well, the Quran still confirms it despite that it goes against its own (the Quran's) principles.

[someoneoutthere]

I'm with Meteora on this one. Anyone heard of David Reimer?


Some of the members here need to take a good long look at themselves and figure why they resort to distorion of Allah's message to justify their sexual preference for cut men. Would God ever prescribe genital mutilation?

Salaam.

[Meteora]

Depending how wicked of a perception you have of Allah, he may or may not. It takes a new level of wicked to command such a thing.

[huruf]

Qur'an does not mention it, plain and simple. Exactly. All men should undergo that surgery and nothing at all is mentioned anywhere? Not believable. We are told how and when to pray, we are told pig no, we are told what to do with slander, we are told innumerable things, but we are not told what should be done with every single male on earth if their parents are believers or he is a believer. Really, at the very least the one thing to conclude is that there is no obligation. And since so much is said in the Qur'an about the characters and deeds of a believer, we must gather obviously that a specific surgery intervention is not at all contemplated for believers.

Amputation is just one of the so many straneous things crept into islam through seeping of christian and jewish traditions, not revelations.

The Qur'an confirms previous revelations, but not what people have done with them, and the books of the bible including the so called tora have been tampered with, and that is factual. The torah that has reached us or even the time of the revelation of the Qur'an, is not the torah that was revealed to Moses.

The reason for the revelation of the Qur'an is precisely that, that what was handed down as previous revelations was nto anymore what was revealed, partly was partly it wasn't, and the Qur'an confirmed what was specifically. If it had to correct every single distortion it would be four times its size.

This male amputation thing is like the exemption or prohibition of prayers and fast for women during menstruation. It does not say anything but yousimply draw from the torah or from whatever and you are fixed: the Qur'an confirms any crap it has not taken the trouble of filling a few pages to refute.

No. It is not so. If it is not there it is not mandated nor suggested. To think otherwise is to open the gate to anything.
And we are told not to impose what it does not impose nor to prohibit what it does not prohibit.

Looking at it making an abstraction of books revealed or not, it is disgusting.

I can imagine that that practice when it first started might have obeyed to some particular events or circumstances and got aftgerwards sanctified as a distinctive trait to foster a sense of belonging to a people or to a sex, but taking it by itself it is crap.

If it is medically recommended for a particular disorder is something, to cure an illness that does not exist is fraud. And to expound on the advantages of an amputation is charlatanerie and of course fraud.

And to expound that amputation means an alliance with Godis more that that: crap and idiocy.

God is nto an ally, God is God, our owner, aur creator, our lover, our everything, if he wants us amputated he would have us, if He wanted us to amputate ourselves, He would have said it distinctively.

Cutting all males as if it were a satanic sect... ?Uuugggg!




Salaam

[Solomon]

Circumcision isn't as bad as everyone is portraying here. It has some health benefits. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/27/science/benefits-of-circumcision-outweigh-risks-pediatric-group-says.html?_r=0